Geez, this is the mistake Love is NOT making at the (good as finished) Club > we embrace ALL, but ban drama. Gay, lesbian or str8, human, furry, neko, vampire, goth android, angel, tiny, pixie, kid, adult, feral, gorean, punk, drow, elf, noob, a pack of friench fries (there IS an avatar like that, I’ve seen it), whatever you can think of > we wont look at you like you’re from Mars (unless you’re a greenie, cuz then you ARE from Mars :o) … I think)…

This just shows how badly some people keep RL separated from SL. I don’t think the IBM people haven’t ever set foot on one of the isles owned by the competition…
Let’s just hope he can do a good job at explaining what a furry is, why it is, and most importantly: where it is.

I’ve said it before and will do so again: the explicit entanglement of RL and SL will turnout to be a severe battle between the 2 of them.

“Call me a gnostic or a heretic, but if we all are children of God, we all are divine, and no person, be it a furry, a feary, a neko or a human, should be refused acces from the House of He Who Loves All.”

AMEN Vint!!

I’m not even going to try going there with my wife >_

It’s hard to find words for this, as I’m totally shocked. For me as a neko, this is nearly on the same level as those fools running around insulting furries and nekos with such nice words as “furfag”. Those rules feel like a slap in the face to me.

I’m not a religious person in RL (actually more of an atheist), but as you said, I also respect certain traditions when visiting a church/mosque/synagogue. And as I happen to work in Cologne, I have been to the RL Dom a couple of times and I surely respect their rules of behaviour there (and of course I’m not looking like a neko in RL …) , but enforcing these rules in SL is just plain stupid!

If you want to have a place on SL that only certain people have access to, thats fine. Just create a group for it and leave everybody else outside. But putting up a gorgeous building like this on a public sim and posting a sign with stupid rules and then kicking/banning people is just wrong. What’s coming next? Will dark-skinned avies be banned or asked to sit in the back of the church only?

Sorry for ranting, but stupidity like this makes me really angry … and at the same time makes me think about sneaking in there and taking some broadly offensive neko pictures, too! ;-)

Katarine, now you’ve made me curious about your wife. =)

Gany, woot! we have french fries in Second Life? Strangely enough ‘no food allowed’ makes still more sence then no furries allowed. Except if the food is an avie, probably. ;)

I don’t think the IBM people haven’t ever set foot on one of the isles owned by the competition… => Their alts then? But yes, RL and SL can not ‘merge’ without (a) collision(s) first. :/

Timothy, before the sim crashed - because an attack probably aimed at the furries - they were getting closere to reaching an agreement on this. But in the end, all should be allowed in. Although I think the ‘detach weapons’, ‘detach hats’, ‘behave’, etc. are validating claims. As these are about props and behaviour, not about the avatars themselves.

Will dark-skinned avies be banned or asked to sit in the back of the church only? => This was my - very ironic - solution for the problem too. :/

You know what they say about curiosity.

I think this is an illustration of how people can be as bigoted as they want, as long as the discriminate against the right people. I do not consider the banning of people based on sexuality (and I do consider furry to be a quasi-sexuality, as it is not a fetish in most, but for some a way of living more than anything else) any more acceptable than the woman who built a running recreation of auschwitz. This is at the same time, even more blatant, as she was at least tongue in cheek as to her bias.

@Vint:
I agree with you that detaching weapons/hats etc and appropriate behaviour are valid claims and actually rules like these also exist on other places like clubs etc. But it still frightens me that a claim to keep furries/nekos out DID come up in the first place and will only be removed after a long discussion …

You know what they say about curiosity. => It killed the cat? :/

Yeah. But that was now changed to ‘all strange creatures’. :D But if I change ‘appearance’ to visit Midian, Gorean or other RPG sims, I do that because I respect their ‘Roleplaying Visitor Guidelines’. So if I were to change appearance to be allowed in the Dom, would that be christian roleplaying? =d
This goes for all RL stuff coming into SL, I think. Respect our Residents as they are. Don’t expect them to change for you, but adjust yourself to the residents. No? =)

Ugh, this is so idiotic. People, it’s not the outside of a person that matters, it’s his qualities. Just because some avatars are furry, children, demons, etc. doesn’t mean they can’t enter (and we even have avatars from “Aqua Teen ” including the shake and fries ‘^_^).

For example, Blue Linden is a dragon, Iridium a “devil-ish” dragon, and a few more “un-human”. But of course, the owners will say “Do come in”. You see what I mean?

Actually my other “persona” in SL (Shadow Barry ; not a real avatar, still on Smiley though thinking of using it on my alt named “Midian Streeter”) is a “naked” black-skinned (I don’t mean dark skin, I mean, the true color value) and black gas surrounded avie at some times. Does that mean I can’t enter our Resident-made “fake church”? No, and not because it’s a “fake church”, because they care about the real qualities of people. Not their avatars.

(P.S. Off-topic: Picked a great day to accidentally scratch my eyelid on the sign-holding ropes at school! While running! Then tangling in it! OUCH!)

Damned Bible busher in sl and rl!

Personally I can’t stand organised religion but Second Life makes it redundant. Where there is no death, there can be no logic in afterlife propaganda!

But it is great that they post such things on the entrance. One is sure about whom she is dealing with at the start. If they they don’t want furries (or dragons, nekos….) let them be. It just shows me that my heart is much broader.
I actually love the religious scene of second life. I visited some monasteries, chapels and other sacred places. Some are just scenography, empty builds like avatar without history and personality, some are extension of RL churches, rigid and in collicion with new world they came in, and some just brought the idea and doing good what they do for centuries.
And, maybe this world is complete illusion, but I know where I feel like myself, where I can find friends and who I can communicate with, whether I am humanoid or andro/gynoid or whatever.
Actualy, me avatar is more frequent in holy places than me human. Maybe because RL has no places with such level of tolerance for furries and strange creatures.
I’ll take you at one of them these days, ok?

Can’t believe my eyes, reading this…

No wings??? How about angels in a church?
I’m never going to take off my wings: I feel naked without them! And I’m not supposed to be naked in a church, am I?

And Timothy: I’d love to join you for that photo-session *grins broadly* I guess a neko with wings would be quite offensive, in this case.

@Zippora:
Great idea, I do have my furry wings ready ;-)

this is so stupid but then Carter says it best “that’s very Christian” they have always been against everything that doesnt fit their mold.

there’s nothing wrong with being something different then human. i’m a drow often and i actually get more attention then when i’m human. in sl you get to explore more facets of yourself and that goes thru the way your avatar looks but your heart is always the same, so its not how you look thats important but that your heart is in the right place.

So how many furries, nekos, dragons, and other non humans do you think we can get to stand outside the Dom before they restart it to get rid of us?

What absolute nonsense!

Zippora makes a good point about no wings / angels, this shows how ridiculous and hypocritical this policy is.

Is it against the TOS for them to discriminate against furries in this case? Possibly.

If they are so concerned about keeping out certain people then they shoud just make the land for group members only. Attempting to enforce such silly rules will backfire on them I’m sure.

I’m a part-time furry/neko, and it has nothing to do with sexuality; to me it’s fashion. It’s very hard to make a human skin look really natural in SL — oddly enough, a slightly fantastical avatar looks less jarring to me. So my default look these days is human-shape, fox skin and tail, neko ears, elaborate Japanese coif, eye/cheek whiskers, and subtle little fangs.

But it is no more a mask — *technically* — than a human skin.

I’ll note that they don’t say “human only” tho. I’m tempted to find a demonic avatar, leave off any wings and clothes, and walk on in — except I’m not a naturally snarky person.

After that initial snarky impulse, I’ll certainly hope that we can come to a negotiated, nonviolent (as in MLK/Gandhi negotiated reconciliation) end to all this.

So sad.

Shava

I understand that part about wings. They will not be pleased to see us walking like angels. That makes sense.
but I don’t understand why you all care about some church won’t accept furries. Who cares? Let them play for themselves. I bet none of you would go there anyway.

Hi!

When I said, “That’s very Christian”, I was being sarcastic and I apologize that it appeared as though I was being demeaning towards the Christian or Catholic faith. When I said that, I meant it to mean that it was actually far from being a truly Christian stance. My understanding (and please correct me if I’m wrong) is that the Bible, Torah and every other teaching from any other major religion of the world says basically that we are all children of G_d and we’re all to love each other. It’s my view that the furries of SL are a race or minority group in SL. Therefore, it would be like restricting the church or temple to only those who had white avatars.

Anyway, let me step off this soapbox, now… I just wanted to explain my statement… LOL Cheers!!

~Carter~

@Dandellion
Why care? I actually had planned a visit to the Kölner Dom, because a friend invited me yesterday. I’d love to see it in SL, because I’ve been there in my youth in RL. I had to postpone the visit, but it would have been a surprise if I had gone yesterday: as I’m always wearing (non-angelic) wings and neko skin and accesoiries most of the time. I’d like to go there as myself, without changing my whole appearance because some people are aftraid for people walking in like anti-christs. And that is exactly what discrimination is about: fear.

We should all wait for the statement by the church administrators. Until then we should not jump to conclusions about discrimination and should keep analogies with gays and Auschwitz and so on out of the discussion. It just creates needless drama. Enough damage was done.

“by the My avastars church administrators” I didn’t write that linked part!

Monalisa, don’t worry. That is just the link to a thumbnail picture/avatar that appears if you have a MyBloglog account. =) What browser are you using that it shows up that weird? (It is supposed to show a silhouette if you do not have an account there.)

Eh, now noticed a problem in my comment. I meant to say, “Does that mean I and them shouldn’t be allowed in? No, we should be, because we are humans in the real life, and although not allowing walking in with a costume into a real life church is understandable, our avatars aren’t costumes. They’re “REAL” LIVING CREATURES. It’s like saying “animals cannot go into God’s earth”. Whoopdeedoo, why did you create bunnies, rabbits, horses, dogs, cats, and all others then???

Just because we look different (sometimes for me) , doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be allowed in. This is just like old racism. I hope this time it won’t get as worse as in the past, when houses and items were burned, walls spray-painted on, and bad nicknames were used regularly for African-American people.”

Although i’m on the Teen Grid, i’m with you people :-) (I mean you commenters, hehe). If you need to spread protest signs around the TG too, i’ll be happy to assist you and use my connections, so the message will be “worldwide” and not just grid-wide :-D.

@(Myself): Hehe, Vint, feel free to add a quote sign ( ” ) to after “…African-American people.” ‘^_^.

I will not step foot in this place until all are permitted…and even then I will hesitate. Vint thank you for this blog and bring this and many other topics to the attention of those…like myself… less informed of our virtual world.

The first step is banning “wrong” people from church .
The next step is an inquisition and before you realize it SL becomes RL . And escaping RL is exactly what SL is all about in the first place.

So i say: keep religion out of sl please
Don’t get me wrong :preach and chant as much as you like but not on my (sl) shift.

I found a link in the german sl forum of slinside.de about this theme:

Interesting: Marilyn Manson was not allowed to visit the Kölner Dom in RL ! The article at ‘Der Spiegel’

Jesus Christ says:

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that EVERYONE who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.”

A true Christian follows/agrees with/acts on whatever Christ has said. Actions or speech contrary to that is not representative of Him.

I believe that a mass march against this “church” should be organized.

Have you ever noticed how most religious groups preach tolerance, but, yet, aren’t very tolerant themselves?

Anony Mouse
“All religions are ancient monuments to superstition, ignorance, ferocity; and modern religions are only ancient follies.” ~ Paul Henri Thiry

I am risking to be (oh I love this one) Devil’s Advocate in the Name of Church :)))))
I am no Christian nor my human is, and my oppinions on this are purely for theoretical fun.

It is interesting how so many of you is reasoning from pagan position. There is a reason why Christian church would not like to have non-humans in their temples. According to Bible, God made a man upon his own shape. And man has that divine part that no animal has. That was said than written many thousands years ago.

And now you expect that church, one very conservative, slow and very reserved for innovations, organization to realize and understand immersionism/augmentatism story and say “oh yes, behind that black cat is a human made upon the very shape of the God”.

And that is the one of religions whos one of top ten commandments (second actually) is “You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.”

Bad Leroy, please… SL is not escaping from RL. Not necesserily.

@dandellion: actually if idolatry by dressing up were an issue we’d never have sheep in Christmas pageants.

I am also speculating, but perhaps a bit more soberly?

I really don’t think these people get it at all. They should be asking that people dress modestly, and state what that means. I suspect they think costumes (which is how they likely think of furries, faeries, and various) are not appropriate for church, and they just don’t get the notions of identity in SL.

But speculating on church doctrinal reasons is a bit of a stretch, even though I don’t support their point of view. I doubt if this has anything to do with church doctrine, just ideas of respectfulness that come out of Belgian norms and conventions.

Marilyn Manson got refused entrance to the real life version:
http://myrealparfum.blogspot.com/2007/09/marilyn-manson.html

Without a lot more explicitness, is it wise to return prejudice against Christians for perceived prejudice against furries?

Really, you don’t have to attribute this to anything more than bourgeois belges. I wonder if it has anything at all to do with the kind of furry prejudice we get in SL in general at all.

Vint, could you speak more to what was said at this almost-completed meeting? You really don’t report much of the content of the meeting. You say it was almost at an agreement, but not what the agreement was?

SN/SS

I didn’t mean it is a negative way Dandelion .
I enjoy sl very much and it takes me to places in myself i didn’t realise they were there.

SN/SS, you get my point rather good when you say I really don’t think these people get it at all. They should be asking that people dress modestly, and state what that means. I suspect they think costumes (which is how they likely think of furries, faeries, and various) are not appropriate for church, and they just don’t get the notions of identity in SL. Which for me means to don’t belong here. You adjust yourself to the ‘world’ you go in, not just enter and start forcing your interpretation of rules upon them.

I don’t see what this has to do with Belgium, though, as Köln / Cologne is located in Germany.

As for the ‘Kompromiss’:

Waiting for the RL church people to think this over, putting up information panels about all kinds of avatars - not just furries - (which would be useless if furries were not allowed in), a 1:1 copy of the Cathedral of Cologne (an idea which not many people liked), … and some other propositions. If you want the whole chat in German let me know.

In closing, I ask you all to stand up and join in for Hymn 147:

*coughs echo through the church hall*

*gestures to the organ player*

*organ plays a keynote for the congregation to tune in to*

All things bright and beautiful,
all creatures great and small,
all things wise and wonderful:
the Lord God made them all.

1. Each little flower that opens,
each little bird that sings,
God made their glowing colors,
and made their tiny wings.
(Refrain)

2. The purple-headed mountains,
the river running by,
the sunset and the morning
that brightens up the sky.
(Refrain)

3. The cold wind in the winter,
the pleasant summer sun,
the ripe fruits in the garden:
God made them every one.
(Refrain)

4. God gave us eyes to see them,
and lips that we might tell
how great is God Almighty,
who has made all things well.
(Refrain)

/me wants to enter the church in avatar of the morning sun, but not to crash the sim with particles :p

:-(

What really, really upsets me is that this whole incident vindicates the non-believers who think all of us christians are petty, stuck-up, holier-than-thou types.

I’ve got a spiritual garden (christian) and small chapel set up in a mature sim. I get all sorts - furries, demons, vampires - even once a naked bloke who’d apparently accidentally wandered over from the Monastery of Perversion right next door (incidentally my chapel was there first :-P). I’ve never felt the need to ban someone or insist people don’t come in because of how they dress. Personally I’d prefer they DID put their clothes on you know, but…

I’m not online in my land all the time so I’ve no idea who turns up when I’m not around. For all I know avatars dressed as nuns and monks might show up and start occultic chanting - now that I *would* find offensive.

I’m an elf in SL, occasionally I dress up as a fairy (complete with wings) - I don’t see as that makes me any less of a christian.

I dont think that many on this blog have that kind of view on christians Kaia… in fact even not on any religion..

Its more the you accept us, we accept you spirit..

It think that even a lot of the ones present here, that now are reacting in a harsh way on e.g. the Nipple case.. aiming at some religuous fanatics, also would jump onto the barricades if one day all forms of religious expression would be forbidden in SL..

At least, I would..

SL is freedom, a way to express yourself.. and if you e.g. do this by means of your garden and chapel, I can only respect that..

This isnt a religious case.. its a case of intolerance… something that touches these very fundamentals of SL.. the freedom to express yourself..

And yes, its a pitty it comes up now, with this christian symbolic build as the carrier of the evil..

But dont worry, I think that most are wise enough NOT to generalize.. and see it as it is.. a stupidity made by some narrowminded individuals, not christianity as a whole..
A stand alone case.. (up till now.. touch wood..)

Kaia, if there was talk about not being allowed to show, Christian, Muslim, Hindi, buddas, of for that matter Satanist symbols in SL.

Thrust me I’ll be there defending the freedom of speech, this battle is never about defending the easy stuff, the main stream. It’s about the hard ugly stuff, such as age play, porn, violence.

“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” - Evelyn Beatrice Hall

“also would jump onto the barricades if one day all forms of religious expression would be forbidden in SL..

At least, I would..”

ditto

thanks - but I’m really not worried that there’ll be some kind of furry backlash against the parcels of professing christians :-)

I mean, what I’m trying to say is that I’m infuriated (to be honest) that some group can come into SL, set up an admittedly very beautiful looking sim, claim to be representative of the RL Cologne Cathedral but then set up entrance requirements that as Carter Giacobini has pointed out are tantamount to only allowing certain racial minorities in. To me personally, I feel that they’re misrepresentating Christ by behaving this way.

And I tell you what, it smacks of arrogance too.

“If the RL Dom people are only willing to allow humans, as far as I’m concerned, they have nothing to look for in Second Life. Go and try There or Solitaire.”

I mean is anyone from the RL cathedral actually involved on SL or do they hope that by seeing this (admittedly) beautiful building people will be compelled to convert. It doesn’t work that way in RL and it doesn’t work in SL either.

It’s like they’ve decided they should have a “prescence” in SL but completely forgotten to gen up on the local culture first. And your right this is completely about tolerance, but by claiming to be representative of a church, they’ve forgotten the whole point - love thy neighbour as thyself….

“also would jump onto the barricades if one day all forms of religious expression would be forbidden in SL..

At least, I would..”

*joins in* (but I won’t wear silly hats, all-covering clothes, multiple arms, etc! ;))

Kaia, don’t worry, this is about discrimination against furries and non-human avatars more then about the chatholic church. But that this was happening involving a catholic church in SL, makes it the more paradoxal. But it could as well being some kind of corporate sim not wanting any strange looking creatures there, and we would react as strongly. ;)

*agrees*
This is not about religion in SL (which is allright to my opinion), but about an RL institution trying to apply RL rules in our virtual world. SL DOES look realistic by times, but we all know it is quite different ;-)

I just love the term of ‘Good Christian’ and how it’s used these days. What with all the outrageous hypocrisy and biggotry of any other sort of religion, not to mention in this case with furries, or even so far as established beliefs such as Darwinism. You guys hear about that whole thing a little while ago about the Christian community forcing Creationism to be mandatorilly taught in High School Science Class?!?! Regardless of the points and issues involved in it, the judge eventually made his choice to prevent the entry of Creationism and stick to strictly Darwinism and all the ‘Good Christians’ in his community started sending him very real and very scary death threats to him and his family. Yeah. That’s really sweethearted and tollerant behaviour, eh? “God loves all! Except for furries, ni****s, c***ks, g**ks, pa**ies, gays, lesbians, people who believe in Darwinism, and generally anyone who isn’t White Christian.” Seriously, what the flying f**k?!?! lol You honestly have to see the backwards sort of humor in that level of staggeringly blatant hypocrisy and biggotry, huh? :P It’s the goddamned KKK all over again! Screw their discrimination in all forms and those people should seriously lighten the frick up or just get bent! I swear, all of these ‘Good Christians’ are in for a massive surprise when they die. lol “So, it says here that you’ve been extraordinarilly intollerant of anyone who isn’t a part of your white Christian community, eh?” “Dat’s right! An’ I go to church every Sundie!” “Well, there’s a little bit of a problem with this. Giving lipservice is meaningless to God if you don’t actually practice anything he’s been trying to teach you. I’m sorry, but there’s just no space in Heaven for you at this juncture. We’ll keep in touch, though. Buh-bye, now.” *Pulls cartoonishly big crank from behind his pedestal and a trap door through the clouds opens up with a falling sound effect.* XD

One more thing so that people don’t get me wrong. I’m a Christian, myself, so obviously there’s exceptions to the lunatics I mentioned in the last post. I just don’t feel I should have to put up with them is all and it feels really good to rip on the racists. :)