I’m not a person who likes to judge people, specially who i consider friends, but… showing this images and transcribing this chat is not against TOS in SL? (I know this blog is not exactly SL), or better said, is it ethic to show this images and transcrib this chat? Personally i think it is not.
You say you felt invited because they were using main chat, this is like to say: I stole the car because they left the door opened, so i’m not guilty, the car owner is.
Of course i’m not pretending to show you what is right and what is wrong, i’m just trying to do an ethical consideration about this case, just valid for me, because is MY ethic.

Btw, i have a question, why you hid the eyes of the male avatar in first image and show the female avatar ones in the second?

I’d like to add you’re being here quite sincere, if i was in the same case surely i would enjoy the show as a “secret pleasure”. Is this ethic? Surely not.

I don’t see any problem in publishing this or in peeking in on them. First of all, your pics are gorgeous as always and second, no names are included. I think just the same: If they decide to do their sex talk in main chat, in hearing distance to possible by-passers, how could you just ignore that? I would have looked for sure ;)

Besides that, if anybody wants to have private cybersex in SL, there’s more than enough places to go to be alone and radar HUDs that can warn you about people nearby. Not that I have any experience with that … ;-)

Not that I want altcaming to become widespread sport, but I don’t see anything wrong with this. If one (or two or more) wants privacy in second life then they don’t speak in public channel, and they use skyboxes. Analogy with car left on the street doesn’t stand… this is more like two people are haveing sex near the open window and complains if somebody on the street watch in their direction.
TOS about publishing chatlogs from the public channel is one of the greatest stupidities of our world. No point in disscussing that.
Two more points:
Nice thing is that you ommited the names.
As I can guess from those couple of lines, those two are cybersex noobs :))))

I’m with Timothy and dandelion. While I see Raul’s point, the public behavior of the two avs in question forfeits their “right” to privacy. The difficulty here is that they may not realize they have no privacy. But most likely, they didn’t care.

Remember, even if you make reasonable attempts to maintain privacy, nothing in SL is actually truly confidential. If people want to spy on you they can. Of course, in that case, spying on people who are trying to have a private moment really is unethical. So be careful.

Raul, no, it is not against TOS. On the other hand, they ’spoke’ these words in main chat, so the nature of the conversation was private, but the conversation itself not. But yes, although I left out the names, it is still against Vint-ethics. But so was ’spying’ on the couple in the first place. The reason why I posted this is because I really did feel guilty and was really curious about other people’s attitudes towards the ‘peeping’ in-world, more then their attitude towards posting this on the blog. I think the facts I describe here are about 3 weeks old. I just couldn’t decide whether to post it or not. But I was curious about how the others would have reacted, and I’m sure that I would get less response when just posting the story and not including the pictures and chat. And I know the ‘they talked in main chat’ excuse is bullshit. Yet we use excuses that are bullshit everyday, so I figured one more would not hurt. ;)

As for why his face is covered in picture I and hers in picture II not: For the first picture, I though: ‘well, her face is .. euhm… covered, so I should cover his too. *puts black block* Ow! this actually looks neat! It ads the ‘watching something you should not watch’ feeling to the photograph. Then I wanted to do the same on the other photograph, hiding the lady’s eyes, but there it ruined the whole picture. So I did not do that. Esthetics above ethics, I guess? ;)

I like Dandellion’s take on this: It’s like passing besides an open window that enters on the street and you hear people having sex. Would you blush and pass, or stop and take a look?

Besides, Alex. Any chance you know the two persons? The crime scene is an estimated 75 meters or so from Romana’s office. =d

I think your last questions is wrong worded… it should be: “passing besides an open window that enters on the street and you hear people having sex. Would you blush and pass, or stop and take a look… if you knew you whouldn’t be caught?”

For me, that is the nature of peeping at SL, the absence of risk… and yes, I’ve done it… sometimes curiosity is too big, and yes, it is a bad thing to do and I really try to avoid it.

I agree about posting the open channel chat without revealing their names, too… they had the IM.

But I think you went too far away publishing their pictures.

Somethin privacity is having sex where nobody you know will find it, even if strangers do; showing them in your belog can make them too public, in a way they didn’t expected… yes, they where taking a risk, but I doubt they thinked the magnitude of it :-p.

Btw, good to see you’ve been released, this place was too empty without you :-)

Very honest and educating post, Vint, as usual! :-)

The only delicate moment is that, like Alex said, they might have not realised they are being heard.. (being the noobs and all)

But the photos are beautiful (especially the second one).

Personally, although I don’t want to be judgemental (well… Judge Mental would be a cool nickname ;)), I think the pictures are too much. Yes, they were talking in open chat, but they were not having it off in the open road.
I certainly wouldn’t be pleased to see pictures of me in such a situation, but then both my avis look a bit more recognizeable than this girl.

Laetizia: If you take Judge Mental, can I have Judged Mental? :d

I agree with you and London on the pictures, and IRL posting this would be a serious crime as they were taken in what can be considered ‘privat space’ without consenting. Again, esthetics over ethics. But Laetizia, you didn’t answer the question. Would you have looked? *grins*

If your doing the wild thing in public or public-ish spaces then maybe that is part of the thrill. Who knows. If someone is doing something in private, say in a skybox with a security device of some sort protecting it, it’s pretty obvious it is private.

They’re fairly attractive avatars and while the SLex text looks boring, I might not watch just because of that. If the SLex text got interesting, well, hmmm, yup - probably stick around for the show. :)

BTW, nice pictures.

-Veyron

Honestly, I wouldn’t have watched. SL sex does nothing for me - I don’t engage in it or watch it. Chat text however… it has to be really good to capture me but I guess it can.

personally i think its ok that you listened in. if they werent noobs maybe they get off on the chance someone hearing them or maybe they just didnt care. i think however that caming inside was wrong not to mention taking pics (although you did some awsome work on it ^^) that to me was taking it too far.

and to answer your question, yes i would have cammed in but then again i’m known for doing a lot of unethical things :P

I would not have liked it, if anyone got close and spyed like you did Vint, and yes i prefer main chat before IM’s feels more “present” in some strange way. I had this happen once to me and i was really furious, luckily we where both present enough to notice the “intruder” on out privacy.

well.. I confess: I would have looked.. and probably found it boring after a couple of seconds.. after all, it are mostly again the same poseballs/sexbed doing the job.
What (eventually) can make it interesting is the chat conversation. Sadly most of the times I stumbled on situations like the one you describe here Vint, the people caught in the act were so uninspired… at the best it resembled a weak imitation of a cheap porno movie.. (not that I have seen one yet.. lol)
Many seem to be soooo focused on the (automated) visual aspect of making SLlove that they forget that the real contact happens via chat/IM words.. are they all male?
So yes, I would have looked and, based on the chat extract you posted, turned away quickly..

But to come back to the ethics aspect that is beeing discussed here:
I think one should distinguish general ethics and personal ethics..
You posted a part of a chat here; but no names are mentioned and the “smalltalk” is general enough so it doesnt point directly to certain people or a group… it could even be invented by you**, but again, as you dont put the word specifically in somebodies mouth, I dont think any privacy is harmed here..
Neither do you use these “quotes” for backing up an opinion / proving a point, without permission.
So, no, it doesnt seem any general ethics are violated here..

Now about taking the pictures.. did the activities take place in an open house? OK, you cammed through the walls, but what if you just had walked in that room? I mean, if the house isnt protected / locked, why shouldnt you go in? I think Rauls comparison with the unlocked car isnt valid here. First of all you arent stealing anything, and even more important: isnt a big part of our second life not about exploring places? Or do we ask everytime the SIMs owner permission before entering/ tp-ing?
No we dont, neither do we ask permision before pushing the snapshot button… all these actions are common/generally accepted while stumbling through SL.. So: no ethics problem..

What about posting the pictures? Is that unetical?
How many picutres arent posted on blogs, Flickr etc.. pictures taken and posted without knowledge or explicit permision of the subjects. I am not talking about modelled portrets, but eg pictures of people dancing in a club.
Is the posting of that kind of pictures unethical? No? Why not? Because of the nature of the activity? Because we consider having SLsex (even in a public place) as intimate, and flying a plane or dancing not? Well, for some, dancing with a real loved one can be a very intimate experience… and what if the dancing pair shouldnt be togheter because both already related to someone??

And what about the fact that I post next chat-extract:

girl 1 : I really like this one..
girl 2 : yes these dresses by Blaze really are great!!!!
girl 2 : you should buy the blue one
girl 1 : mmm… X likes to see me in red…

unethical? dont think so..

So, no, I dont think that your post goes against general ethics Vint. It does seem to clash with your personal (and some of the readers) ethics though, that is why you are having ambivalent feelings about it, and why there are so many comments on this post.
But again, this has more to do with the nature of the activities then with the posting itself..

** dont mean to say you only produce smalltalk Vint :-)

/me wonders who Nadine is talking about… XD

personnally, very personnally, i don’t mind the pictures. when I went into SL, i understood that my avie was to be exposed to papparrazis (aka Vint ;). since theres no strong crypto and that nothing can prevent camera peeking, I never considered SL a privacy safeguarding place anyways. if someone snooped my IMs i would be really pissed off, but blaming peeping toms would be like to blame porn viewers ;) i consider what i say in public chat, well, public. if you really want privacy, the only way is private sim or huge land with access list restrictions, and even then.

maby some devices could be built to prevent cam peeking and such things, but as any security measure in SL it could also probably be breakable… just thinking outloud ;)

I really tried to let it go, but I cannot keep my mouth close anymore :-p.

I almost write a post, but that would be stir the thing even more.

Anyway, here we go:

“Besides that, if anybody wants to have private cybersex in SL, there’s more than enough places to go to be alone and radar HUDs that can warn you about people nearby. Not that I have any experience with that … ;-)”

Timothy, they were supossedly alone, it wasn’t a public sex room… and about the HUD; are people who don’t rent bodiguards (AKA, a security radar) guilty of being assaulted?

“If one (or two or more) wants privacy in second life then they don’t speak in public channel, and they use skyboxes.”

Dandellion… what kind of skybox? a public one? (not very private), or maybe on the land they probably don’t have?

“OK, you cammed through the walls, but what if you just had walked in that room? I mean, if the house isnt protected / locked, why shouldnt you go in?”

Veronique, let me try to understand your rule… if you use free camera to cam through a skybox with security protection, it is bad, but if it is a conventional house it is ok.

Pleeease.

Every one of the things done at this post are bad, and you know it. The matter is how bad they are.

Imagine they read Vint’s blog and see everybody commenting their (I’ve to admit pretty lame) sexual exploits. Even if anonimously, is humilliating. But yes, you risk that with open chat.

Camming… yes, a lesser sin, “because I do it”. There are a lot of bad things we excuse because we do them too, and we know we are reasonable and good intention people, so the sing isn’t so big… it isn’t as if we where invading somebody intimacy, isn’t it? (and, I want to repeat it, cam sometimes… I am not throwing an accusation from the righteous point of view).

But the pictures… the pictures can actually hurt somebody… yes, a dance can do it too, and even a public hug… but if you don’t see the diference, I am nobody to try to explain it to you.

When I practice public sex I know what I am risking but, seriously, do you think they knew? Actually being blogged inside a building that doesn’t host a public sex place?.

Ok, maybe the example is bad… try this… you don’t have a house and try some new clothes, no matching underwear while bald in a hidden place… and them somebody blogs you and makes fun of you… somebody blogs you in one of the tenth more representative blogs of SL(http://www.blogtop40.com/)… and you still can be recogniced by your friends, and maybe members of your RL family.

You didn’t blur them, didn’t cut or pasted over the eyes why?… esthetics over ethics?.

Holy shit. Maybe I am stupid, but I cannot see the joke.

Sigh, when I saw the post didn’t show, I thinked the anti-spam service had eated it because I had added an hyperlink, and hoped it whould be the end of it.

I am sorry about being a bit too harsh, but is a pain to know the pictures are online, and probably will keep that way.

Ok, I feel more than a bit silly… I looked at the website at work, and didn’t saw the post. Now I looked at it here, and since I have the cookie associated to the author I saw it… but talking with Timothy, he doesn’t… so it is still blocked because the url makes it spam :-p.

Vint, if you see it on time, leave it go and delete this ones too, please; I was a bit angry and don’t really want to see it published.

Well, London, is it ok that I leave it here? I actually understand your opinion, although I don’t agree on the no chat quotes. I ask permission to copy paste from IM, but not from public chat. I was just walking the street when hearing them.

To the other comments I’ll reply tomorrow. I have a bed waiting for me. ;)

About the post, well, I don’t like it much when I get angry and the brimstone rains, but I whould never had thinked about retiring it if I hadn’t been tempted because it got delayed for the added link (silly, silly, forgot about the spam filters :-p)…

But what is written is written, and if you find it interesting, let it be… and yes, I was too far about being wrong to write the open chat, open is open, after all… it is only I cannot stop imagining the poor guys, so proud of their “moment” and discovering people is making fun of them… anyway, perfection comes with practice ;-)

Btw, you know it took me a while to notice the difference between “is it ok that I leave it here?” and “I’ll keep it blocked but I whould like to publish it if you don’t mind?”.

Vint, I shouldn’t have asked you to delete it, it is one of that things that aren’t right… but at least it let me discover you are a born journalist :-)

@ London : I am sorry, but you took “my rule” a bit out of its context here..

My point is that there is absolutely nothing unethical about exploring and entering PUBLIC AND ACCESSIBLE SIMs in SL, taking snapshots of the things and activities your see there, and posting them or comment on Flickr, Blogs, etc… that is what (for a big part) SL and SL related blogs are all about !

“….the pictures can actually hurt somebody… yes, a dance can do it too, and even a public hug… but if you don’t see the diference,…”
well, I DO see the difference, but again, this is about crossing a personal moral limit. A limit that is different for every individual.

And if, for the 2 on the pics, their limit is crossed here, they themselfs too should have the awareness, or even the honesty and responsability, not to deploy these kind of activities, or at least not in a place where they can be observed..
One cant demand others to respect your standards, if oneself doesnt live by them..

Again, there is nothing wrong with the nature of the things Vint did here (otherwise we can shut down 90% of the blogs and Flickr), but it are the activities of her subjects that seem to freak out a lot of people..

But she needed a subject like this to bring up the main topic of her post : it isnt about the sexplay of these 2, but about (Vints) moral dilemmas about posting this kind of stuff..

oh, btw, I dont see that many comments of people “making fun of them” here…

*smiles evily*

“My point is that there is absolutely nothing unethical about exploring and entering PUBLIC AND ACCESSIBLE SIMs in SL, taking snapshots of the things and activities your see there, and posting them or comment on Flickr, Blogs, etc… that is what (for a big part) SL and SL related blogs are all about !”
Exploring, entering, camming?

Even better… “PUBLIC AND ACCESSIBLE SIMs”… like all private residences whithout locked doors, security systems or red lines?.

“I DO see the difference, but again, this is about crossing a personal moral limit.”… I cannot disagree there, is that kind of personal moral limits that make that kind of picks illegal in RL *winks*.

“they themselfs too should have the awareness, or even the honesty and responsability, not to deploy these kind of activities, or at least not in a place where they can be observed..”…

I keep forgetting, wasn’t inside a building? Or does the slip on the open chat open it for camming?.

“(otherwise we can shut down 90% of the blogs and Flickr)”… Do they cam to take their pictures?; none of them should worry about the consecuences since it is “art”?

“it isnt about the sexplay of these 2, but about (Vints) moral dilemmas about posting this kind of stuff..”

Trembles before asking… this kind of stuff?

Dear Veronique… you should understand something… open sexual conducts are part of SL and, even if I understand that they should be kept away from eyes that can be hurted, your words show a pretty interesting tint…

My question about the pictures is if people should be allowed to cam and publish them, since only a blocked SIM can avoid this kind of things… and the only weak point I find is they used the open chat, probably exposing themselves to the public.

Your answer sounds like they are guilty because what they where doing, and that maked them lose their right to intimity…

I see you carefully avoided to answer my example of bald while wearing no matching underwear… tell me, is it different for you?.

Camming is bad, but it is a little sin… there are much worse ones. And maybe the “I am morally right to do this” is one of the worst.

Sorry, forgot to answer about people making fun… I did, for example: “and see everybody commenting their (I’ve to admit pretty lame) sexual exploits”

So did Dandellion “As I can guess from those couple of lines, those two are cybersex noobs :))))”

Wait, even you have a pair of words for them: “the people caught in the act were so uninspired… ”

/me sighs.

@ London “…like all private residences whithout locked doors,etc..?” Yes! exactly.. tell me, how can I distinguis between a private place and a public place, if it isnt made “private” by the owner?

Some days ago I was eg in the Greenies sim. It looked like a (giant) private house, I wasnt invited, and it didnt have sign “Welcome, come in please !” hanging at the entrance…
So, was it wrong for me to go in?

Am I really only allowed to go to shopping malls, clubs and places I receive a landmark or tp offers for?

And no, in RL I wouldnt enter somebodies house just like that. But we are talking about SL here, (where exploring is an aim)and there are some (slightly) different rules…

and, yes, I said a pair of words about what they were doing. But making a comment still is something else then making fun about something..
Or is that forbidden too? Hey guys, this is 2007 not 1984 !

And with this last words, I consider the fact accounting done, and the case ready to be sentenced :-)

*bows for the galery*

I suggest we sentence London to dial-up speed for 30 minutes? ;)

Now *that* would be cruel and entirely unethical ;)

@Vint: dialup: you mean 2400, or 14400 on a noisy phone line would be a better idea ? :D

*makes innocent look and starts studying the stars in the sky*

I’m slightly taken aback that you could resist the temptation to go right in there and help them adjust the positions. She seems to be chewing some part of his anatomy that doesn’t feature in Johnson and Masters.
This strikes me as a serious moral issue. People in need……
Condy has sent in troops on lesser provocation.

[…] 2007: End of the SLelections, callout for photographs for SLart at the Cannery, discussing respecting privacy in Second Life or not and the human abandoning me for a […]