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Philo Sion, f*ck u! | VintFalken.com
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VintFalken.com

Philo Sion, f*ck u!

August 30, 2007 4:13 pm

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Today, I’ve send a friendly instant message to Philo Sion, asking about a way I could get permission to use the skin I bought from Hybrids for personal use only on OpenSim:

Hello. I hope this reaches you. I had a question for you, if I could take my skin out of SL to opensim for personal use. I’d love to chat or mail or so for a moment if it’s possible. Greetz, Vint Falken

This is the reply (one and only) I got:

[14:53] Philo Sion: No you can’t, that’s against TOS and is considered stealing.

Geeh. I know it’s against ToS. I know it is considered stealing. Would I have been asking otherwise? But I also know it’s not that hard to do - be it with or without permission of the creator. I don’t get it. If I had any dishonest intentions, I would not have asked. So if I’m willing to ask her and to figure out a way that it is legally correct - which probably would have ment paying her the amount she asks for custom skins or so - and she can’t be just a bit friendly? She just mainly tells me to sod off?! The human in me says: ‘Well, next time I don’t ask and just do. F*ck you!’. The Neko in me just wants to fire some guns at a certain lady and then rip the texture. Dead people don’t complain about copyright violations. =d

Gosh. I now wish I had chosen another manufacturer then Hybrids when I first decided to ‘try the Neko thingie’. *sobs* (And yes, now I also have a tag ‘SL assholes’.)

74 Responses to “Philo Sion, f*ck u!”

Smiley Barry wrote a comment on August 30, 2007
MyAvatars 0.2

Awww :-( *hugs Vint* !$#$ her XP.

P.S.: I’ll see what I can find on our grid if you’d like :-D.

dandellion Kimban wrote a comment on August 30, 2007
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I expected that you’ll hardly get your skin unfolded… but this response is not polite at all. I would have to say something about how to communicate with fellow residents but I used all today’s venom on Iridium.

One thing…. “it is against ToS”. What does she is refering to?
/me admits she never read that lawspeak called ToS

Dalien Talbot wrote a comment on August 30, 2007
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Smiley, were you working on something which was called “DuoGrid” ?

if we think of “duogrid” in a broader sense, the “other grid” could be opensim.

I do suspect there is a subset of content creators who do suggest to remove the nipples, and who might be interested in getting into this experiment,

but fixing the whole world is a pretty tiresome exercise. just remove the warning signs and let the problem take care of itself.

Smiley Barry wrote a comment on August 30, 2007
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@Dalien: DuoGrid means 2 grids, I actually meant it as the MG and TG :-) Though we can squeeze OpenSim as well :-D (without changing the name, as OpenSim is an Open-Source project).

Dalien Talbot wrote a comment on August 30, 2007
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@Smiley: well, if you look at the triangle from each of its sides - it has only one end and the other end - so DuoGrid still holds :)

Connor wrote a comment on August 30, 2007
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Maybe you could consider getting some talent and making your own skin as opposed to bothering hard working “real” artists and asking them if its ok to copy THIER work. What if I made my avie look as dumb and retarded looking as yours….wouldnt that offend you?

Smiley Barry wrote a comment on August 30, 2007
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@Dalien: *Nod* By the way, check out http://www.tslwiki.vintfalken.com/duogrid — I’m using MediaWiki as the project will have many pages, including “certificate pages” for the MG TG compatible locations/sites (That was the main purpose, to enable sharing of businesses and sites over grids — for example, someone’s shop on the MG could be also on the TG, only run by a teen manager :-) )

Dalien Talbot wrote a comment on August 30, 2007
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@smiley: it does not like my galeon on linux :) what kind of nuclear power station you’re running that it requires firefox specifically ? :) galeon is using gecko engine - so I did not see any prob with it so far…

Tyffany Flintoff wrote a comment on August 30, 2007
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Vint - seriously, you bought the skin - you paid this rude bitch cash for it. So long as you aren’t going to onsell it or abuse your ownership - just do with your property exactly as you wish. And of course - let all your contacts in SL know what a jerk she is and don’t buy anything from her again.

Smiley Barry wrote a comment on August 30, 2007
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@Dalien: It says ‘best viewed’ because Firefox can do round corners :-)

Dalien Talbot wrote a comment on August 30, 2007
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@Smiley: it bails out with 500 internal server error for me….

London Spengler wrote a comment on August 30, 2007
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Do you really consider it thieving? You buyed the skin, and don’t plan to release it, only to extend it’s personal use to another wirtual world.

Of course, any designer whould feel uneasy with a question like yours, they could think “what comes after that, asking for a copy of the textures?”. But rudeness is so inexcusable :-(

Veronique Kaminski wrote a comment on August 30, 2007
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I think Tiffany is right here Vint.. You bought it, its yours, you can use at your will, as long as you dont harm the interests of the creator..
Its like taking a copy, for own use or back-up, of a CD/DVD you bought..
And are you harming her interests? It is not that she is also present in the Ruth-Open Sim / her products are available there, so that by just taking the skin with you, you are denying her some income..
I travel a lot in RL, but up till now, when crossing borders I was never asked to leave my suitcase at the customs, strip naked and go buying new clothes on a market in the country of destination…

Unless of course, if at the moment of purchase it was clearly stated that you could not take it out of SL/ the main grid.

But what is a skin basically? A texture? An arrangement of pixels representing (a part) of the avatar Vint…

So then, what if you, or somebody else, takes a snapshot of you and posts it on e.g. Flickr…???? (some people do that, you know)..
At that moment too you have taken that same pixel arrangement out of SL into an other application, am I right?
So, is that a violation of TOS too?? Stealing?? Must we everytime we take a snapshot, ask permision and pay not only the avs, but also the owners and creators of every object that appears in the picture??

RaR / The Cannery better starts hiring some lawyers… :-p

Veronique Kaminski wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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@ Connor: well ill try to explain this in a simple way… to meet up with your mental capacities..:
If everybody started to make their own skins, Philo would be out of a job and income too, dont you think??
Thats just the basic of our (SL/RL) economy.. everybody does, or is supposed to do, what he does best.. and exchanges his handicrafts with some made by others, eventually using a lubrificant called money..
If everybody should do everything themselves.. I guess we would still be living in caves..

Now, Vint doesnt just want to take a copy of something that belongs to Philo.. she allready bought it.. and is even prepared to pay a second time for miss Sions hard working..
so, I guess you are right, she is dumb and retarded…

But I see your point.. even paying 2 times, miss Falken is taking advantage of this hardworking Philo..
Because while Philo is doing all this slave labour in her sweatshop, what is Vint occupied with..?
Just editing a high profile blog about SL, running a photostudio, designing clothes, being curator of a top SL art exposition, writing tutorials, helping people out with their blog templates, fighting for basic avatar rights as freedom of expression,… not to forget mindless partying…
The untalented, lazy bitch…

@ Vint, concearning the above… NOT! :-p

Dalien Talbot wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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@Veronique: *bows* Very nicely said.
Unfortunately that there might be a provision in the TOS for that, which determines the defult reply of the blurry nipples individuals. By TOS I think there is no other country, altogether - hence the situation of crossing the border can not happen.

I’d say the easiest would be to find and encourage those content creators who are more sensible. And give some visible economic incentives (a.k.a. make it known and stop buying) from the others.

Is there SL consumer rights society or something ? Or we should start one ? :)

Timothy Lilliehook wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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Enough talking, FIRE THE GUNS! ;-)

Aprak Ofatys wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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ROFL!

Or just shoot her;)

Actually she’s right though, it is considered stealing. What you bought is the rights to use it. It’s like music on a CD, you own the media but not the content.

So unless you get permission to do whatever you want with it, it’s legally speaking not right to take it.

Eppie Hock wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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Burn the witch! :-)

dandellion Kimban wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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/me gently touches the handle of her lugger, switching to mouselook…

Vint Falken wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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Let me first say this: If Philo Sion should read this, and conclude that I ment no harm and wanted to do things ‘correctly’, she may still contact me using IM or the comments below to work on a way I can take my skin to OpenSim. But as the things are now, I’m not shopping at Hybrids ever again.

Connor, whilst making coffee before facing your rude and insulting reply (Hey! Lad! Next time at least have the guts to comment with your SL name.) a reasoning came to me that is rather parallel with Miss Flintoff and Miss Kaminski’s.

A. My skin is a virtual good. So is a CD with content. Or at least, the content of the CD. I’ve payed for my skin, so I own ‘1 hybrids skin’. (And a few demo’s ;))

B. I am entitled to make a back-up copy of the stuff on my CD’s for if the ‘medium’, the CD would ever fail. Of course they try to prevent me from doing that, but I am allowed, as long as I don’t sell the CD’s, give them a way, … . Yes, I know, the skin I have from Philo Sion is copyable, so I have a backup with non colored spots in my inventory. But that’s not the point. I’m not afraid I’ll scratch the CD, I’m afraid the CD itself will disappear, become unreadable. I’m afraid my skin will get lost somewhere on LL’s servers, due to inventory loss, hardware failures, … . Or even worse, that LL would cease to exist and I could not access my skin anymore. If now you own any records/LP’s, minidiscs, … you are allowed to transfer that music to your HD or a CD to being able to still play it. As long as you can show the originals. Well, for backup reasons and for my own comfort, I want to transfer my skin to OpenSim, to play it there. As I own the skin - virtual good - and payed for it and it can be considered a virtual/digital good, I do not see why I would not be allowed.

Considering I was even willing to pay for that same virtual good - where I payed Philo Sion already once for - even a second time, I don’t see how you would consider me a thief. Thiefs don’t ask ‘may I use the car that I bought from you also on another continent’. Nah, those thieves would just steal a second car.

I clearly stated it was for personal use only and I was willing to talk to/negogiate with her about it. Yet she was not. I’m sorry, but I do not see where I’m making the mistake here. Especially not one that would cause you to use such language towards me.

As Miss Kaminski noted, I do do some stuff on the grid and around it. And I do sort of know how to work graphic software. So I’m sure that if I would spend the time on it, I would be able to create a skin that is at good as the ones Philo Sion makes. But I liked my current skin. And I did not want to ‘recreate’ something that looks like hers because I did consider that theft. I would have prefered paying her for one (for christ’s sake, she even could have put a ‘Mady by Philo Sion’) tag on my genitals, I don’t use them anyway.

So to put this short:

Maybe you could consider getting some talent and making your own skin as opposed to bothering hard working “real” artists and asking them if its ok to copy THIER work.

I asked we could talk. That means she could have asked me for money for it, for some mentioning on the blog for ‘Philo Sion’ or ‘Hybrids’ being OK on the idea of open source / open sim and a reasonable person, … Did you see me say ‘may I just copy it and start taking advantage’ anywhere?

What if I made my avie look as dumb and retarded looking as yours….wouldnt that offend you?

Well, I would say ‘look at your own avatar first’. But as you did not mention your ‘real’ SL name, I assume you are either a coward or to dumb and retarted looking for showing yourself to the masses. =d

Véro, London, Tyffany, Smiley, Dalien and Timothy, thank you very much for the reasonable logic and defending me against Connor’s insults! Véronique, I’m even blushing now. See: *blushes*.

Timothy, fire the guns: you mean those that shoot penisesnaked sculpted nipples? ;)

Timothy Lilliehook wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
MyAvatars 0.2

@Vint:
That’s perfect! You can take care of your “problem”, be broadly offensive and protest against the current Linden censorship AT THE SAME TIME with a gun like that! ;-)

(BTW, place 5 on Google Germany for you when searching for “philo sion”)

Vint Falken wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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@Aprak Ofatys:
Well, them I’m allowed to use it, also on OpenSim? As I said earlier, I am allowed to transfer LP/records to CD or HD if I prefer to use the music that way. So if I payed for ‘the right to use it’, why would I not be allowed to use/’play’ it on OpenSim, in stead of Second Life?

But, I was willing to pay - again - for the use of it on OpenSim. That’s hardly stealing, I think? Or incorrect? She could have asked ‘what do you mean’ before just blowing me off.

Nadine Nozaki wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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Connor, Now are you being stupid, really stupid, Vint is one of the top artists in SL. She is just incredible.

Smiley Barry wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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@Vint: You’re absolutely right. You can make as much copies as you’d like, if you don’t sell them. :-)

@Dalien: If you’re trying to access index.php or a server file it’ll give you that, since I made a few .htaccess mods to use duogrid/XXX instead of duogrid/wiki/XXX . But, I think i’ll make a couple more mods to fix this conflict :-).

Smiley Barry wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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@Dalien: Well, fixed the conflict :-D Should work now :-).

Storm Thunders wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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:( Tell you what, IM me sometime - I make some neko style skins and I’d be happy to work with you to customize something for ya. I should have some time this weekend.

Naked nipples, dirty minds « Pandora’s box sent a pingback on August 31, 2007
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[…] provocation, and it usually only manages to make people angry… here you have an example: Philo-sion-fck-u (fashion related too, btw). Remember, politeness is the oil that greases human relations, and never […]

Dalien Talbot wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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Storm: woot! (sorry did not yet have time to get inworld - RL suddenly started to take insane amounts of time) Do you make male neko skins too ? :) I’d be interested.

Storm Thunders wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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Dalien: Yes. I’ve got several neko/furry style skins, and I’m starting to experiment with skins that are a mix of human and beastie. My latest ones aren’t in the shop yet, but the male ones in that batch are much more masculine than my early ones.

dandellion Kimban wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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Storm, would you be so kind to abuse Vint’s blog with SLURL of your store or you expect all of us to IM you begging for the LM? :)

Aprak Ofatys wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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@Vint: I’m not sure. Normally any purchase with rights limited to usage is accompanied by some sort of legal contract, agreement or understanding. I suspect the TOC would go as such.

Whether or not you can take copies for personal usage (for example for music) differs from county to country. This is a gray-area and and for example in Sweden it’s perfectly legal to make copies of artwork for personal usage (one of the reasons why PrateBay is Swedish btw). Politicians are bickering on a international level and US lobby organizations for music and movies have even tried to interfere with Swedish government *shrug* …

Morally speaking I would say that you’re in your full right to take whatever you legally purchased (even if it’s just rights of usage) and do whatever you want with it.

But then again, I’m low a layer (thank God) and moral and law seldom seem to walk hand in hand ;)

If OpenSIM becomes the hit I think it will, I suspect we’re gonna see plenty more of this kind.

This is a form of freedom battle, don’t expect it to be easy. Expect blood sweat and tears to get your rights recognized. Freedom seldom really comes for free :D

You’re not alone though…

Give em ‘ell :)

Storm Thunders wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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*blush* http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seomna/214/238/71/

The black/white and white/rainbow ones on the catyrs aren’t boxed up yet, but they’ll be the same price as the other skins. My neko’s using the black/white one. I should be on the grid a lot this weekend, drop me an IM or a calling card.

Smiley Barry wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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@Storm: GIMME GIMME! I can’t access the MG, so would you be kind enough to send me photos of the skins and allowing me to use one on the TG? ‘^_^.

Dalien Talbot wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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Storm: if you have any “oldies” / “freebies” stuff - we can definitely include that into the distro library. One way of “attribution” to you might be your name in the description (or URL of the site/blog - if you are interested in that, I guess I could chat with the folks?)

The humble hackers that code this under BSD license, mostly get the mention on the wiki page, that’s it. :) (And yours truly does not even dare to call his few-lines-hacks coding. I babble much more :)

But for my “personal” skin I definitely would like to discuss the price and not planning to throw it around. :)

Inventory is a very interesting technical problem, however, in the case of mixed-trust sims.

Dalien Talbot wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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@Smiley: could you ping me on gtalk ? :) the thing still just does not work, for some reason :) [maybe it is time for a weekend and i am braindead, not sure]

Smiley Barry wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
Dalien Talbot wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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@smiley: ahha! as I suspected: my friday braindeadness… :) I seem to be starting to lose the ability to read, enhancing the one to write. :)

Vint Falken wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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Storm, Ok. How much would you charge me for one texture for personal use for OpenSim?

CodeBastard Redgrave wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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@Connor: not only you are ignorant and stupid, you are also a fucking chickenshit coward. Anyone saying Vint has no talent have it’s own head in his ass. And being cowardly enough to hide your name in order to say it? What a damn nutless shitbag. Nuff said.

@Vint: whatever the maker of the skin allows you the right to copy for personnal use or not, backup right or not, the maker was a rude bitch not having any consideration for customer relationship. at least you had the honnesty to ask, while most people would just have said: what the fuck, i paid more than it’s worth for the right to use it. And most people would have ripped it regardless. You asked to the maker if you could copy it for personnal use, and it’s okay if he refuses. But he didnt need to be an asshole and squarely accuse you of stealing. Whatever…

Smiley Barry wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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@Dalien: Yeppers, and I see the problem… Alot will run into it… Lemme fix it right here… *DING-ZAP-ZONNNG* Fixed-ey! :-D.

Dalien Talbot wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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@Vint: argh. just noticed you have credited me for commenting on this anonymous post… Normally I do not waste my energy on those, but since you have credited me :)…

@Connor: as I said, initially I thought not to waste the time on replying to you. I know Vint’s work and efforts she puts to make SL better. google around for “slart cannery” and you will see one recent example of what I am talking about. Once you find the courage to show your SL name and what exactly have you done to compare, we may continue talking. Till then you are nil. The quota of the time I am willing to dedicate to talking into the void is over, so feel free to reveal the name, and present what *you* are worth.

p.s. Firefox 2.0 does have embedded spell checker, highly recommended.

Smiley Barry wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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@Dalien: Heh, true ‘^.^. I use one for Hebrew and English as I tend to mess up several words periodically (Like “periodically” I just wrote, was “perodcally” ‘^.^).

Dalien Talbot wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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@Smiley: ah, but you have an added difficulty of typing left-to-right-right-to-left all the time while switching ? :) I would’ve been lost even with a spellchecker :)

Smiley Barry wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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Well, yeah, but I write Hebrew in Hebrew-oriented websites, and English in English-oriented websites. (Although in SL I can type and send Hebrew because the first version of SL ever installed on my PC was 1.10 :-P)

Storm Thunders wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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Vint: Promise to not let anyone else use or buy it, and I’ll do it free. I want to build more templates for my own use, and you have a very fine eye for what looks good. And I’m a fan, I admit it!

Smiley: You’re on the teen grid? If I make up two or three freebies, would you spread them around there?

Smiley Barry wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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@Storm: Sure! That’s what i’m currently doing with Vint’s SLart At The Cannery T-Shirts ;-).

(Sorry for the late reply ‘^_^)

Vint Falken wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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Storm yes, this would be completely mine. Although they are looking for stuff for the library still too. Let’s IM (or mail).

And looking at this, I think we urgently need to get duogrid going! (Smiley, it’s almost there, I hope. :d)

Smiley Barry wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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@Vint: *Nod!* No prob, just lemme complete the site first :-P.

Vint Falken wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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Yeah. And then add the functions I would like to see. Childlabour is fun! ;)

Edit: Sorry, teenlabour. You’re to mature to be called a child anymore. =)

Smiley Barry wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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ROFL. Whaddaya want in addition? ;-)

Gabriel Watanabe wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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Just dropped in since a friend pointed me to this, and talking about skin makers and hard work:

http://brutalhonestysl.blogspot.com/2007/08/sham-and-swindle.html

regards :)

My first visit to OpenSim | VintFalken.com sent a pingback on August 31, 2007
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[…] a note to ask if I may have my skin to export, if it’s for personal use on OpenSim only. (Got a very non-positive reaction from Hybrids’ Philo Sion) Yes, there are other means to do that, but I prefer the legal, friendly way. […]

Vint Falken wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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Wow. Thanks, Gabriel. So it seems Connor’s ‘real artist’ uses business in a box content that was stolen from a real real artist. LMAO. There goes the last respect I had for the lady.

*purrs in the direction of Storm* I want to look this cute! =d

dandellion Kimban wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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NO, don’t do that to me. I want to stay this shape and skin. At least some more time.

Smiley Barry wrote a comment on August 31, 2007
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Huh? Nobody reading my new post about reflections I got in Second Life? :o *meow meow MEOW!* *cute cat look from Shrek O.O* *Purrrr…* *slips in URL http://tslwiki.vintfalken.com/smiley/*

Vint Falken wrote a comment on September 1, 2007
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Smiley, use feedburner and then get that feed listed on planet.wordofsl. (Or at least do publicity on some blogposts that involves graphics/sl photography.) ;)

dandellion Kimban wrote a comment on September 1, 2007
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Speaking of which… two days ago I had a prboblem subscribing on Smiley’s feed….

dandellion Kimban wrote a comment on September 1, 2007
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Though, now it is fine. Forget this.

Smiley Barry wrote a comment on September 1, 2007
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I think the database blacked out that time…. Darn that no-confirmation delete button! >:(

Smiley Barry wrote a comment on September 1, 2007
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Still, LOOK!

Smiley Barry wrote a comment on September 1, 2007
Vint Falken wrote a comment on September 1, 2007
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LMAO. Smiley, I have duogrid.com (yey!) but if you’re not starting to behave here, you’re not getting it! :D

Smiley Barry wrote a comment on September 1, 2007
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Well, SORRY for starting school tomorrow and having to go to sleep now :-P . No, I am X.X I HATE school rofl. At least i’m (almost) done with my summer homework! :-D

Shockwave Plasma wrote a comment on September 2, 2007
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@Eppie Hock
What else do you do with witches ?

( I feel a Monty Python moment coming on )

Eppie Hock wrote a comment on September 3, 2007
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@ Shockwave , well, build a bridge out of them :-))). Actually , I was thinking of the Queens of The StoneAge song

Veronique Kaminski wrote a comment on September 3, 2007
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when you burn the witch, make sure she is properly dressed…

and take care her dress is flame proof.. so it doesnt turn to ashes before she does..

no nipples @ the Burning Witch event!!

dandellion Kimban wrote a comment on September 3, 2007
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Don’t talk about burning the witches or you will all rezz next time as frogs! I am serious!

Veronique Kaminski wrote a comment on September 3, 2007
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@ dandellion : been reading my in-world profile, were you?? :-)

Dalien Talbot wrote a comment on September 3, 2007
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Don’t burn the witches - they are useful for puzzles:

Three witches watch three Swatch watches.
Which witch watches which Swatch watch?

Vint Falken wrote a comment on September 3, 2007
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LMAO. Now try this one: Three Swedish switched witches watch three Swiss Swatch watch switches. Which Swedish switched witch watches which Swiss Swatch watch switch?

*grins*

Veronique Kaminski wrote a comment on September 3, 2007
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@ Daniel : ermmm ???

@ Vint : now you made it easy! No confusion with SLT, GMT etc..
Swedish and Swiss?? must be the watch indicating CET .. :-p

you cant fool me !!!

Smiley wrote a comment on September 3, 2007
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@Vint: Swiss, obvious :-P wait, my watch is missing! Then the out-of-the-three Nike watch XP.

P.S.: Yesterday was this school year’s first day. I can’t f****** handle 30-32 Celsius! IT’S TOO HOT I WIND UP SHOWERING AT 2-3PM! X.X

Smiley wrote a comment on September 3, 2007
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P.s.: Changing your picture in MyBlogLog is Firefox-unfriendly! >.> Made me use another PC at home, which made me lazy, and simply use “Remote Desktop” XP.

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[…] Philo Sion, the creator of my cherished SL neko skin refused a dialogue on me exporting that Hybrid …, I got a friendly offer from Storm Thunders to help me with a personalised vint-style neko skin for […]

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