Great blog, Vint, congrats, yaaayy ! And this decision totally sucks, no doubt ! For final european consumers like me, the only option is… give up our lands and all our projects, quit shopping (don’t you think european designers will reflect this on their prices?) and… just relax and have fun !

Yeah i did…..was suprised. No warning or anything on lindenblog.

I pay land tier to Dreamland and not Linden…but that will probably go up too?

Thinking of dropping me premium account now lol.

Many ppl blogged this morning about the VAT e-mail.
I thought Lindens want more premium accounts not less.

Yes, I got that e-mail too: in the middle of the night and keeping it for a moment that I would be more awake ;-). And I do have a premium, so have bills from Linden’s.

After a night of sleep I can understand what I’m reading and I think it is ridiculous. When I pay VAT in my own land (Netherlands) I know my money is going to my own government. But I’m wondering where it is going when I pay it to LL? Their own pockets?

Besides that it must be a hell of job for LL to keep track of all the different tax rates in different countries, they’ll need employees to do that… and who’s going to pay them after all? I bet the residents with a paying account.

And there’s more: as far as I know (but I’m not an expert - not at all actually) there are different tax rates for different “products”. You pay less for service (I think 6 or 7%) than for assets (21%). I wonder what LL is going to charge me for my account.

And only for Europeans??? *frowns* There was something about equality of all residents, what was it again… (oh hubbie is saying that only Europeans have this way of paying taxes, that might explain)

Hey Vint. You asked about the rest of the world. This only applies to countries that are a part of the EU. Gwyenth Llewelyn at http://secondslog.blogspot.com/ did a great blog explaining the whole thing. Not an American thing. Sorry you are getting hit with this though. Take care.

I find it humorous that these Europeans who always advocate socialism and free lunches and short work weeks and such are now whining about the heavy taxation that of course was instituted to sustain all that socialism.

It’s a form of infantilism, this European dependency.

/me ignoring the typical PN off-topic rant….

LL is slow. Took them how long to figure out that gambling in SL would be illegal? And they are just now determining that, oh, maybe we were supposed to have European members paying VAT?

Are they making stuff up as they go?? They didn’t have a legal team in place from the get go to advise them about how online businesses work?? They could avoid all these last minute decisions if they knew what they were doing before implementing their product.

I definitely would not be happy if all of a sudden I had to start factoring VAT into my normal LL payments, how much is an average VAT rate these days, anyway? Bummer.

Sure would be nice if LL could make all their policies effective at once, instead of throwing something new at us each month.

The VAT they’re talking about is a EU tax. Other parts of the world don’t have it.

Remember when they moved billing to a 3rd party in I think the UK? LL doesn’t have to keep track of local taxes themselves, that’s for the billing company to do. My guess is either some european government agencies started asking about taxes or the billing company brought it up.

I’m interested in what gets banned. The rule seems to be things that would make a government forbid access. The US federal govt would block access for casinos, and much of Europe and Australia would do the same for images of avatars doing sexual ageplay.

http://secondslog.blogspot.com/

This article by Gwyneth Llewelyn covers the matter to the point.

When I pay VAT in my own land (Netherlands) I know my money is going to my own government. But I’m wondering where it is going when I pay it to LL? Their own pockets?

Now, the money will flow back to the EU (and maybe even Holland?), it will go back to the EU. Just as if you pay a Dutch retailer the VAT, it ends up with the government, so will it do now. The money only travels a bit longer.

And there’s more: as far as I know (but I’m not an expert - not at all actually) there are different tax rates for different “products”. You pay less for service (I think 6 or 7%) than for assets (21%). I wonder what LL is going to charge me for my account.

With us - Belgium - 6% is basic goods (bread, books, …), 12% is a bit less basic and 21% is ‘luxery’. (Which goes for clothing, TVs, alcohol, … .) I’m sure having a Second Life counts as a luxury and not as a First Life basic need, so it’s 21%.

For final european consumers like me, the only option is… give up our lands and all our projects, quit shopping (don’t you think european designers will reflect this on their prices?) and… just relax and have fun !

Yes, for ’small’ European residents, owning land, premium, etc. will get more expensive. I don’t know if there is some sort of VAT already included - often for services it’s 0% in the USA? If not, this indeed means a rise of 21% for the Belgian and an average rise of 19 - 20% for all European residents.

For those that say ‘just get a VAT number’, that is not without risks. Your status would change for if you loose your job, need social healthcare, … . There is an inbetween solution - zelfstandige in bijberoep - but even that would put you in a situation where you will suffer from administration OD.

What does confuse me though, is that for other web/hosting/internet related services I pay the same as residents of the USA? Eg. a year of Flickr premium membership costs the same in Europe as the USA? Even if I pay with a Belgian credit card. Flickr is owned by Google, they have a EU HQ too and I would be surprised if they are not abiding to EU law?

Further, as for Belgian legislation, they are obliged to show the costs of their service including VAT on their website. They do that for https://secondlife.com/account , saying that the amounts include VAT. Yet for instance the ‘upgrade to premium’ lists just the USD prices for Americans and the warning that you will be billed immediately when you press ’save changes’? Nothing about ‘the actual amount you’ll pay will be higher because we need to charge you the VAT too’? Or is the VAT included in the 72$ for a year premium membership?

I also don’t see why LL did not want to supply any (extra) information on this - like the the information Gwendolyn gave for instance - on the official Second Life blog. They post about machinima groups, which not even affects 10% of the Second Life population, but how many European residents were there again? They should have also given the EU residents a fair, advanced notice of this. A 20% difference in the amounts that will be billed can cause problems for some.

Maybe Gwendolyn is right when she says:
So until yesterday it was up to you, as an European, to pay the state your reverse-charged VAT on all bills received by LL between 2003 and 2007 ;)

From now on, however, LL will make sure you’re a well-behaved European citizen and get all the VAT billed beforehand ;)

But the effect is still that Second Life suddenly and without a fair warning became 20% more expensive for a lot of the European residents. And even if this sudden tax is justified, they should have communicated more clearly and more timely.

In Sweden (and Denmark too I believe), VAT is 25%.

There was an incident a few months ago when Linden Labs shut down my account because I had logged on from the “wrong” IP (which proved to me that LL monitor all the users).

It just wasn’t the same afterwards. From having had a lot of fun, I suddenly felt like I was in East Germany.

This time I cancelled my account immediately. Enough is enough.

Yeah well … another European here who has to pay 19% more now. But Vint, do you seriously believe that LL is capable or even willing to communicate properly?? I mean, there is this far more intrusive identity verification thing, run by a dodgy company founded in 2007, about which LL still tells nothing substantial, other than that there might be even more intrusive identity verifications in the future? I don’t like ranting usually, but these people are just dictators who act like dictators do … so don’t be surprised …

Um, let me get this straight. These people are “dictators”? Because…they are complying eith YOUR European heavy taxation socialist laws? Mkay. And they are tyrants because…they are verifying age due to YOUR hysteria about child porn and YOUR laws? Right! Ok, then, got it!

Personally I work very hard at not paying ANY tax ANYWHERE. Hey, I’m Chinese. But it’s a bit difficult pointing a finger at the poor old Lindens for trying to stay on the right side of the law in multitudinous jurisdictions. Mind you, if I was you I’d strongly appreciate some confirmation that the funds so collected were actually applied to the taxes specified……

Well, way to go, Lindens! Though lucky me in Israel, we don’t pay the 17% VAT here for Linden services :-D If they start charging me VAT, the Lindens will never get an Israeli Linden Liaison in 4 years ;-).

P.S.: Hmm, perhaps VAT in Linden terms is:

Very Aggressive Terms,
Virtually Annoying Toads,
Very Awkward Ticks
Very Aggressive (customer) Tweaking

And feel free to suggest more… >.>

hopefully the basic accounts do not get taxed… yet… :-)

Maheegan: while you still have the viewer, maybe you could help me verify whether we have a texture download bug now in opensim, or not ? :-)

I love my basic account:
- It wont get vat’ed, as there no membership or tier payment
- It wont get dispended if LL can’t bill it for whutever reason (they don’t bill it at all)
- I can still own land if I want to, just not at LL

Couldn’t LL set up an European base?

You’re not getting the whole picture, Kean.

LL has a European base — offices in England. No doubt their need to register there and in Vienna I think it was where they were starting another new office (look at their blog for info) they faced this VAT thing seriously for the first time — they just hadn’t focused.

Having the European base is what is causing this problem; they wouldn’t have it likely to the same extent if there were no European operational base.

You can “own” land from land barons who can rent you islands or mainland, but now *they* will be paying VAT as part of their fees for tier and land purchases. And that means they have to pass along the costs to YOU as part of their greater expenses.

ahh… it is because they are in EU that we now need to pay tax, as for any other stuff we buy in EU. I see.

What about the US tax we allready pay then?

and what if I buy from and US or Chinese based landlord?

not exactly Kean. Quoting from Gwyneth Llewelyn’s blog:
“non-EU businesses providing digital electronic commerce and entertainment products and services to EU countries are also required to register with the tax authorities in the relevant EU member state, and to collect VAT on their sales at the appropriate rate, according to the location of the purchaser”

So LL is simply complying to EU-law. But it feels unfair anyway, because the effect is that end-users (like me) have to pay about 20% more for having a second life.

Yea… I understand that it has nothing to do with where LL is based apparently, and that LL should have charged VAT to all EU residents since 2003, and most users prolly thought that the VAT was included in the end price as is the norm.

But as I understand it I wont get charged VAT as long as:

1. I stay on basic membership
2. If I need land I only buy land inworld on private islands owned by US citizens. No VAT on inworld transactions user to user, right?

Still are we getting double VAT’ed? You do pay VAT in Cali no?

I think it was Andrew Linden who said they were not allowed to give “warnings” as soon as it was announced, they had to start charging.

Linden Labs also took a lot of advice, but it seems that their actions don’t comply with laws in Germany and in France.

Well, what they should do is, make the prices the “same”. Like so:

They would subtract the 20% off an island monthly cost (per Resident), and call it the regular price, and then adding the 20% as the VAT. So it won’t affect Residents.

Entitlement happy Euros trying to blame LL because their government is overtaxing them. Typical

Speaking as a dedicated tax evader, why not use a proxy server? Should fix the problem.

I think it was Andrew Linden who said they were not allowed to give “warnings” as soon as it was announced, they had to start charging.

Linden Labs also took a lot of advice, but it seems that their actions don’t comply with laws in Germany and in France.

Shockwave, can you give some more information on Andrew’s statement (where, when?) and the non complying from Linden Labs to German and French laws?

Bhelle, I think the people that would really really benefit from having to not pay the VAT care to much about SL/their account to take the risk?

@John Barrett: Excuse me? I’m not a European, though I think LL should’ve given them a heads-up. Instead of saying it like so:

“Entitlement happy Euros trying to blame LL because their government is overtaxing them. Typical”

You could’ve said:

“I understand this is annoying, but LL had no choice. Its the government you should be after.”

Do you agree with me it sounds better and more friendly? Jeez.

@Bhelle: Well, it’s a little “risky”. These proxy IPs can be tracked easily, and owners of those proxies contacted by the FBI your local government. So, I don’t think it’s a very good idea to cheat ‘em :-/.

@Smiley: yeah. cheating is definitely not a good idea. If it’s law - it’s law. OTOH - assuming all the other services are complying with the law and have the VAT already included, then we the price has been all too high from the very beginning.

For not 20, but 14 bucks per month, I rent not a 512m2 of pixelspace, but a whole server. (Well, it’s a Xen VM, but still).

@Dalien: Lol, you mean, your OpenSim server? Or someone lent a server to you on the grid for 14 bucks a month?

@Smiley: nope, that’s another server that I have, for “small things” :-)
I did run opensim on it for some time, but the memory was not enough. I could’ve gotten a somewhat functional opensim host (assuming no intensive traffic) for around 40/month, though.

If I do not need the social networking capabilities, and find the pleasure in pure building, that would’ve been just about a damn good deal. And the best part of it would’ve been that I can grab all of my content and move it to any other PC.

@Dalien: Ah-huh. Nice! :-). I really need my own web host. Can you recommend me one that is low-priced, very responsive, has a high amount of bandwidth, lots of space, and always (99.99% will do) online?

I saw some pricing US$5 a month for 300GB, but they’ve got to be phishing. Email me some selections ;-).

It seems Vint didn’t see my “comment request” lol ‘^_^.

Comment request? As for as I know I moderated everything as ‘pass’ that came from you? Mistake from my part still, probably. What did you write?

Smiley:

a quote from rfc1925:
Good, Fast, Cheap: Pick any two (you can’t have all three).

That said, the folks I’ve mentioned are unixshell.com - I get the box with root access, 6g disk space, 128m of RAM and 300gb of traffic included into this package. The new accounts operate through tektonic, which I think is just a brother of unixshell.

Maybe they’re not the cheapest, but the fact that in 6 years i needed to talk to them twice, is good enough for me to not search for anything else.
(and then, again - this is mostly for small personal stuff, not really running a business or anything).

@Vint: I put in a request to edit my comment, and placed two URLs with the words “hackish” and “url” so WordPress would keep it on moderation ;-).

@Dalien: Hmm, nice. Though I want something like, 50GB… For example, I was considering buying an iPod Video once, and thought of getting the 80GB version. I will never get to 80GB, yet still, to play it safe ;-).

@Smiley: Aha, now I understand.

As to the VAT, I still have lots of questions left, the blogpost on the official second life blog did not clarify anything:

• Can you tell us EU customers why we are still paying the same base (ex-vat) price as US residents? I’m assuming that now you are charging us VAT, you should not be charging us state of california sales taxes (7.25%) also? As it stands, we are being charged VAT on the ex-vat price AND us state tax… (Gomez Bracken)
• Robin: In the “interview” with Prok you stated that LL has been absorbing the VAT all along, which in my opinion has to mean that account fees and tier fees were *ALWAYS* VAT inclusive like any EU citizen would expect.

  That obviously means that you’re not just adding VAT to current fees, you’re simply executing a country-specific price hike that only affects EU citizens, under the guise of being forced to comply with EU law.

  It would be helpful to clarify whether LL didn’t realize it needed to pass on VAT for EU members until recently (quite unbelievable, but a possibility I guess) or be upfront that this is really just a targetted price increase. (Vanessa)

• Why didn’t you warn europe residents when buying an island that the prices you mention at the website would get much higher when they bought land with you?
• The most disturbing thing apart from the lack of notice, is that you’re illegally applying VAT to the existing billing period, having given no notice beforehand. According to EU law, if you didn’t mention VAT, the assumption is that it’s charged. It would be quite legal for us to report you to Customs & Excise for this ‘oversight’, besides disputing any additional VAT charge for the present billing cycle with our credit card companies.
• I am in SL to make music only. Which means that all my expenses are music realated. In Denmark I don’t need a VAT number to get my VAT refunded, all I need is a receipt.(Hollivals Allen)
• 1.4 Second Life “currency” is a limited license right available for purchase or free distribution at Linden Lab’s discretion, and is not redeemable for monetary value from Linden Lab.

  You acknowledge that the Service presently includes a component of in-world fictional currency (”Currency” or “Linden Dollars” or “L$”), which constitutes a limited license right to use a feature of our product when, as, and if allowed by Linden Lab. Linden Lab may charge fees for the right to use Linden Dollars, or may distribute Linden Dollars without charge, in its sole discretion. Regardless of terminology used, Linden Dollars represent a limited license right governed solely under the terms of this Agreement, and are not redeemable for any sum of money or monetary value from Linden Lab at any time. You agree that Linden Lab has the absolute right to manage, regulate, control, modify and/or eliminate such Currency as it sees fit in its sole discretion, in any general or specific case, and that Linden Lab will have no liability to you based on its exercise of such right.

  So if tiers are paid in L$ they are not applicable to VAT right?(a concerned resident)

The Lindens aren’t raising a price just for Europeans, that’s silly. They are adding the VAT that you Europeans require to sustain your socialism, it goes to your governments, not them. They’re required to include it — and that means *adding it* — in their price.

The reason the Lindens don’t charge California sales tax is because they are not required to by law. There isn’t tax on this sort of interstate Internet commerce, say, on amazon.com it works the same way. You can read up about this just by googling the terms. The major states have generally ruled not to try to collect this — or if they *do* have some statute requiring that stores, say, within California, collect tax just from California residents, they don’t enforce this — it would be complicated to enforce.

The VAT does not apply to resident-to-resident transactions in world. It helps to both read the letter the Lindens issued, and their web page on it.

I totally agree that this should have been announced properly with due notification. But the notice is for the next tier cycle, which is about as good as one can expect from the Lindens.

The Lindens are not a European company; they’re an American company, operating in the U.S. interstate context. So they don’t put prices that illustrate taxes for the U.S. — or for any other country. It would be absurd to expect that.

Now that they are registered in the US, and have a VAT registration number evidently, and have staff in the UK and plan more European offices, they have to pay VAT.

The Lindens are NOT applying the VAT to the *existing* billing period, but the NEXT one. Your bill is a bill that indicates the tier you indicate you will hold *for that next month* in addition to billing you at the highest level tier you hold. If it were billing you for *this* tier period it would instantly debit. Instead, it is a notice for your NEXT bill. Read the letter.

There’s a gem in here which refers directly back to my comment that it would be nice to have confirmation that they’d applied the money collected to paying VAT.
The point is that it’s a Value Added Tax, not a sales tax. It nets off if you add further value to the goods or services traded. You can get credited or refunded for tax payed on inputs if you add further value. For this you need to be able to produce a tax receipt or invoice if audited.
Now I’m no expert on European VAT but in most places there is a legal obligation on the person who collects VAT to provide a receipt. Serious penalties! Someone should point this out to the Lindens

The Lindens *do* provide a receipt. Navigate here:

As for your constant claiming about how VAT is different than sales tax, you’re completely missing the point that in the U.S., all businesses and individuals write off expenses on their income tax against their income. It’s called “deducations”. If they are taxed on their income from SL, they can show the costs involved in tier, etc. and thereby reduce that tax. Same principle.

Get it, Prokofy, bright-eyes? They HAVE to give a receipt.

And…so they do, bright-eyes!

There is no use whining about the fact that one has to pay VAT. That is part of how our social system works.

But anyway… remains the fact that by law, in the announced price the VAT MUST be included.. if not, as stated before, it is supposed to be…
It is not up to the customer to make the calculations.

So, if the Lindens, or their billing agency, think that by charging the VAT seperately, adding it to the announced price, they are complying with European or Belgian laws,… they are just breaking another one.

Again, there isn’t anything *more retarded* that this persistent belief that the Lindens cannot *add the VAT* and increase the price. There is nothing whatsoever illegal about this. In fact, like it or not, *it’s what they are doing* and surely they have better legal counsel than the opinion of a lot of amateur brats on a blog.

Anyway, if I’m wrong, and the Eurocrats shut you down because GASP the American company couldn’t keep subsidizing you, buh-bye, hope you find another game.

@Prokofy
I should neglect your comments, but I think you are only feeding any existing anti-american sentiments with the way you are flaming on Europeans *quotes: “I continue to be absolutely amazed at the ability of all these blahging Euros nattering..”* Who’s nattering?
But possibly that is exactly what you are after: dissension. I regret that.

And besides the question if LL are acting correctly or not, no matter if you are American, European, Asian or whatever: who wouldn’t be annoyed if he had to pay 20% more on his bills?

Zippora, I’m happy to be as shrill and as persistent on this as need be, to meet the shrillness and persistence on this from people like Veronique. Sorry, but that’s often required to get people to think straight and use some common sense and reason here.

And, apparently a lot of the problem here is that people are just ignorant about how to run businesses, because they’re amateurs. I’m told you can register a VAT company, collect VAT, declare expenses, and get it back. Now sure, that sounds complicated. But then, that’s what normal people do when they run businesses. It’s as if people imagine virtuality is supposed to rescue them from paperwork.

Vint, why don’t you just ban Mr. Neva? I mean, it’s pointless to discuss with him, he has no manners whatsoever, and it cannot be an accident that he’s banned on most SL forums, including the official one (which is, to the best of my knowledge, not run by Eurocrats). These constant personal insults are so much against most basic netiquette and common sense — please take it as a user statement, I don’t want to read anything from this guy here again.

“Digitale varer er toldfrie

Digitale varer – det kan være et computerprogram, som kan downloades via internettet – kaldes ”ydelser”. Sådanne ydelser, som du eksempelvis downloader fra internettet efter at have indtastet dit kreditkortnummer, er toldfrie. Også selv om du henter dem fra en internetserver uden for EU. Der skal dog fortsat som hovedregel betales moms af ydelsen. Det skal den udenlandske leverandør sørge for, når køber er en privatperson.”

According to Danish (EU) law is it the foreign supplier of a digital service that is responsible for paying VAT back to Denmark, when the end user is non-comercial. The end user is not the one responsible for calculating the VAT.

This is not a new thing… it has been like this since 2003. So if LL untill now has not payed 25% of any sales they made to me, they are the ones breaking the European law.

In reality all we see is an increase of the prices which of course is VAT included right?.

Um, the personal insults merely match the ones made against me. The skittishness about personal insults and nasty comments are never evident for those *other* people, eh? Take a look at what they write!

And if there is some law broken since 2003…why aren’t the Lindens long since sitting in handcuffs in a dungeon in Copenhagen?!

There is, as usual, again somebody who only reads what he/she wants to read, in order to start ,again, a sensless ranting campaign.
The blind leading the blind..

But, to state some facts again:

1) I have nothing against VAT.. partly it paid for my studies, social welfare etc.. so no whining..

2) Not everybody does business in SL… most are mere consumers.
For people like that, registration for VAT exemption would really be retarded. It involves RL costs and obligations, bookkeeping, etc..
For the average John and Jane Doe, who just are playing the SL game, and pay a premium to only have their 512m², the costs will be a multiple of the 21% VAT charged..

3) If you are selling to normal consumers (not registered for VAT exemption), like LL does, its not about if you can, or cannot add VAT to thre bills. They just have to do it.
But also they have to announce prices including VAT. That is not me shrilling, that is just the law..

So, if you put a price tag for your clients, showing that something costs 100, the client has to pay 100. This means that your company will get +/- 82.6, and that you have to pass the remaining 17.4 to the state..
Of course, as a seller you have all the rights in the world to earn 100, but then you HAVE to tell your customer that he has to pay 121 for the product he wants to purchase.. not 100.

The whole idea behind this, is to create transparancy for the small consumer. No surprises when settling the bill.

I am not begging for a price reduction for Europeans here.. just saying that if LL wants to comply with the European law, they should take care about complying with ALL laws.. and state how much theire service will cost us, VAT included.
One is supposed to assume that the announced price includes it.
And jurisdiction tends to protect the small ignorant consumer..

(they are allowed btw to show ADDITIONALY how much it costs when you can recuperate VAT, but only in a non-confusing way… clearly stating that it is without VAT, and, eg not in bigger sized characters then the full price)

**** OFF TOPIC

“Anyway, if I’m wrong, and the Eurocrats shut you down because GASP the American company couldn’t keep subsidizing you, buh-bye, hope you find another game.”

Funny words from the mouth/keyboard of the one who in many other occasions claims to defend the rights of the “small players” against the FIC, the big companies, the communists and what ever conspiracy exists in her paranoic mind…

But, I suppose, again it isnt about discussing the topic is it? But mostly about entering/ starting a controversy, venting anti-european frustrations, and, like a fungus, spreading your name around the blogosphere..

*** END OT

I suppose that LL either has payed VAT since 2003, or has just discovered that they should have.

If they pay, they dont need to go to jail.

Maybe that is why we now see a sudden rise in pricing? =)

Mr. Neva, very simple: before you started your … whatever it really is …. here, there was a friendly and fun atmosphere here, which is gone now in precisely those discussions where you participate. What a coincidence. But as this seemingly always happens once you engage somewhere, you might just consider it normal. I don’t.
And that’s all I have to say about this.

to be honest miss Kelly.. me too, I am wondering if all this “funny writing” you were quoting, isnt just one big insult to the address of mister Neva..

:-p

There is, as usual, again somebody who only reads what he/she wants to read, in order to start ,again, a sensless ranting campaign.

>Mr. Neva, very simple: before you started your … whatever it really is …. here, there was a friendly and fun atmosphere here, which is gone now in precisely those discussions where you participate. What a coincidence. But as this seemingly always happens once you engage somewhere, you might just consider it normal. I don’t.
And that’s all I have to say about this.

Gosh, girls, sorry to upset your teaparty! Please do go back to your fashion show!

When you run and profesional business there’s no need to whine. Nobody has asked LL to sell digital services to communist EU. So if LL don’t wanna pay VAT to EU they could simply stop selling to EU based end-users. It is really that simple.

:-)
So… we have somebody amongst us who, when asked to pay 100, pays 117.4… tell me again, who is the retarded here??

(btw: basic mathematics… 17.4 = 21% of 82.6 ; adding up 100
as 121 = 100 + 21%… but allknowing and with a broad education like you are Prock.. you knew that didnt you? Talking about the 17.4% adding to 100 was just a trick to see if we brads were awake in the classroom??)

And yes.. a lot is in the letter.. most of us can read.. problem is: it just came now.. not when they started.. so we all could, HAD to assume that VAT WAS included all these years.. Now, it seems just a raise in price..

I’d like to read your comments if one day LL discovers that they were neglecting the rules of .. lets say Alaska, because there is some internet related tax for the benefit of polar bears, and because of that they start charging extra… Will you defend them that day?
My guess.. if we (europeans and other ignorants) are in favor, you will fight it..
But if we will raise our voices.. you will back-up LL.

When will you admitt that there is only one topic for you Prock?:
putting your own pittyfull person in the spotlight??

And I think its more than a cup of latte for LL.

I seriously don’t need to be put in the spotlight. But I do like to hack at the truth — when I see it surrounded in lies.

So, something to study and learn from.

More than a cup of tea too… *Offers Vint and V another cup*

Yay, can we please get back to the tea party? Any fashion news? I recommend checking out lilolOops, they have some cute manga style stuff, lilolOops mainstore , Pastis (170, 159, 26). :)))

Well Prock, first of all..congratulations with your last comment.. finally its one that isnt blurred by name calling and insulting..
Keep it that way, and nobody will mind entering a discussion with you again..

Well… I try to explain it to you again.. a last time.

If the Lindens want to sell something to me, a european customer due to VAT, they must include the VAT in the price they are charging me.
But, also the product must be advertised stating the full price.

I am not saying that I only want to pay 82.6. But if a seller tells me that his product costs 100, I only have to pay 100, and I only will pay 100.
The seller is responsable for deducting the VAT from the sales price and pass it to the state. It is a tax on the added value. And it arent the consumers who add value to the base materials.
Any company therefore includes the 21% BEFORE announcing the price to his customer.
(unless, as car salesmen sometimes tend to do for promotional reasons, the seller takes the cost of the VAT upon them..)
Now this VAT doesnt exist since yesterday, nor since 2003.
It exists as long I do remember. And, I might not have your blessed age Prock.. but I have been around.. I am not exactly a teenager anymore..

Therefore, since LL always told that the product costed 100, and they never told that they payed the VAT for us as a promotional gift, we allways HAD to assume that VAT was included. Its not up to the domestic consumer to verify this.
(its a bit like in criminal law.. your are innocent untill proven the contrary)

So, comming up with this now, it leaves people here surprised.. and wondering:

*Was LL all these 4 years tax-evading? If you do that as a privat person and you are cought, you get fined..

*Was LL that ignorant? Not knowing that for doing business in Europe they had to count with VAT?? Really?? an American company, the country where they know all about doing business?? Having hundreds of thousands subscribers in Europe (not all paying, I know..) I guess that, before entering a market, one does do some research, dont you? Especially if you are offering a product where one of the basics is about commerce..

*Or is this just a way of raising the bill??

Anyway.. being in favor or not of all the VAT taxes, fact is that it isnt a correct way to treat your customers.
Suddenly start charging some extra costs on the excuse of applying the law.. while, according to the same law, you were already charging these costs..

thanks K..
mmm can you offer something stronger togheter with the tea??
I really can use it… :-)

oh sorry.. I forgot.. for that kind of stuff the taxes are really abusing over there, arent they?

lmpao…

Um, once again, sweets — I know it’s hard to wrap your mind around it — the Lindens are not required to reduce their normal price just because you have socialism in your country. No. Not at all. And if the REST OF THE WORLD’s custom is not to write “We don’t include the European VAT in our price,” gosh, sue them, eh? Or hang them from the lamp-posts.

Gosh, this is difficult. I don’t really see the point in trying to get you to grasp it. Perhaps another 30 days of billing will help : )

LL have chosen to take out charges, in a way that is “maybe” required. They have chosen to enter the EU market, they have choose to deal with us, when they did that they have to follow our laws. They are not forced or are mandatory to take EU customers iTunes, and Apple waited long after opening in the US to come to the European market.

A company like Lindes from the US are if they pass a number of Swedish crowns are obliged to follow Swedish laws. (I can agree that it’s a stupid rule but that’s the law.) Most of your US companies is able to follow EU law with out screwing the customers. In this case the lindens isn’t doing to well in that apartment, in fact they raised the price 25% over the night for there serviced with out warning. Also that for long time didn’t think this raise was worth telling all users about, I still haven’t got the mail. Maybe google fought the lindens was spamming. Also the row about f we think you might be in Europe but have not registered you self as European we’ll close your account. Probably is interesting for you US citizens as well, if you try to used your SL account on vacations in Europe, or are at a big company having internet access via Europe. (I knew few European companies that operate ion the US that have all there uses con into the internet via Europe.)

Fro me the raised prices makes buying stuff from the lindens way to expensive, it’s so much less worth it now, they lost me as potential customer.

Milena, I understand what you mean, but I still think Prokofy has the right to say what she thinks, as long as she does not insult people / whole nations without that adding anything to the discussion. ;)

I found her reply to Kean and the post following on that one to be - almost - not insulting and - almost - on topic, so I did not blank those out. Yet the changing the blog url for all her comments to this article on prokofy neva by benjamin duranske stays.

Yet, I haven’t read the rest of the discussion yet. If I feel there is something inappropriate/typically ‘prok attack’ in a comment, I’ll blank that one out and you can choose if you read it or not. *starts now*

So, if the Lindens, or their billing agency, think that by charging the VAT seperately, adding it to the announced price, they are complying with European or Belgian laws,… they are just breaking another one. (Veronique Kaminski)

Indeed. That is what we mean with a price raise. If Linden Labs has always absorbed VAT / prices were always all incluse as Prokofy Neva himself stated Robin Linden said, then this is a price raise and this change should not have affected prices at all except for the people with a VAT number entitled to paying less, would be able to do so. Instead of that, they still pay the same - did any of them succeed at getting their VAT numbers accepted already? - and 98% of the European residents pay more for services from Linden Labs.

“you can’t add VAT to the price” is quite simply again — retarded. (Prokkie)

Nah. It’s law. Prices stated should be all inclusive. (There are some exceptions for flight tickets, I believe.) But because that is so, we European residents thought we were paying VAT all along. You can’t just say ‘this is the price’ and then - when they already have permission to charge your credit card - say: ‘ow, wait, we forgot to mention that you should pay 21% VAT’. I don’t know for the USA, but in Europe doing that is considered fraud.

Um, the personal insults merely match the ones made against me. The skittishness about personal insults and nasty comments are never evident for those *other* people, eh? Take a look at what they write! (Prokkie)

YOU started using terms as ‘idiots, go to hell, retarded, …’ here. Not me or my commenters! So they might match, but have you ever tried not to make any yourselves?

Um, once again, sweets — I know it’s hard to wrap your mind around it — the Lindens are not required to reduce their normal price just because you have socialism in your country.

Once again, Prokofy, sweety : according to EU law, the prices mentioned by Linden Labs were all-including, that is VAT too. VAT is not something like postal costs. They should mention all prices on their website VAT included. Not only on the final accounting page. They are not reduced to lower their price, but they are raising there prices with ‘a false excuse’. They added a VAT that we were already paying.

(Conclusion: Blanked out most of Prokofy Neva’s postings. Discussion and more information on the VAT: more then welcome. Discussion just for the fun of Eurobashing: go do that on your own blog.)

tWhen you see an editor blanking out pages like the old Soviet Pravda, yet pretending they are not censorship, you know what sort of totalitarian personality you are dealing with.

In the meantime, don’t you have a VAT-registered business where you can write off your expenses as deductions, Vint? A big girl like you…

Yeah Vint, I also know what you mean :) However, I doubt that you will be willing to put this effort into Mr. N’s posts forever. On the Virtually Blind site I found particulary interesting the link to Clickable Cultures … the guy running that one was once not so much against N, but still banned him after he got finally tired (if I remember everything correctly).

If I grow tired of blanking out intolerant, insulting comments, I will see what I can do teaching Askimet that I regard such comments as spam. ;)

I commend to people’s attention the following Wikipedia articles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crank_%28person%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

Now, besides the fact that this practically will mean that most EU residends will have to pay more for playing thre “game”,
I wonder what the effects will be now VAT is introduced in SL.

Because, next statement at first sight sounds fine :

“Transactions in L$ between individual Residents are not subject to VAT”

and it is true, from the LL point of view. LL has nothing to to with the transactions between the residents, or between a SL shop and its customers. So it is logical LL doesnt have to take care about the VAT issue for this transactions..

But, fully applying VAT legislation, and taking in consideration that many businesses, be it shops, rentals or even prostitution, are registred as companies and convert thre Lindens back into real money.. should they (the small or big businesses) also start charging VAT to the EU customers?
Applying different prices if the dress is bought by a EU resident or a Mexican? And maintaining the bookkeeping that goes with it??
Theoretically, in that case, it will even affect the rental business of our beloved PN, who ‘ll have to charge some of her customers extra in order to maintain our “socialist” systems..
Oh irony of life…

No, I don’t plan to do anything so ridiculous as charge VAT micropayments. The EU cannot extend out its vast, greedy hands to the entire world, making the rest of the world add to its tax coffers to sustain Eurosocialism. Sorry, but no Eurocrat realistically expects that, and LL has already pointed out that resident-to-resident transactions don’t count. What counts is when you cash out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostracism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribalism

“Transactions in L$ between individual Residents are not subject to VAT”

This is true, but only up to a point.

The legislation about VAT in the UK (the exact details for other EU countries will differ) says ……..

“You MUST register for VAT when
The value of your taxable supplies exceeds the registration threshold
If the value of your taxable supplies in the past 12 months or less has exceeded the current VAT registration threshold of £61,000, or the value of your taxable supplies in the next 30 days alone is expected to exceed this threshold, you should read the publication below and complete the application form.”
from…. http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_PROD_008117&propertyType=document

You’d need to have a pretty big SL shop to be earning £61,000, so for most people it’s not a problem, but you can voluntarily register if earning less than this, though you might find the paperwork is a so much of a burden as to be not worth the work just to claim back the VAT on your LL fees.

Graynor… I am not sure… but as long as the transactions are made in a virtual currency its not VAT’ed, yet. Of course if you convert that to dollars, and take it out you have to pay normal tax, but stil no VAT, as there is not really sale involved in the transaction.

I think VAT stinks but I don’t think it’s the lindens fault for obeying the law.

Maxx, the problem is that with obeying the law, they are making numerous ‘faults’ against the law:

• Some people had no option or did not get the notice in time to cancel account subscriptions, land amounts they have to pay tier for, … . Thus, whilst they agreed to pay LL let’s say 100USD, they now suddenly had to pay 100USD + VAT. A raise of pricing for a service should be communicated timely and people should have the option to cancel, according to EU consumer law.
• All prices mentioned on the site should be VAT included according to Belgian - and all other EU too? - law.
• If I have to pay Belgian VAT, I need to be able to pay in Euro’s.
• They do not offer a decent receipt, with a decent overview of each purchase with LL, it’s VAT amount, etc.
• …

Now, the non-legal part:

• They notified people only last moment and some even to late.
• Communication & information were - as they are often with Linden Labs - hard to find, limited, ambiguous and not even always correct depending on the Linden talking.

Yeah, that all stinks. :p

I don’t pretend to know anything about the law. I guess I’m just confused at how some can claim to be obeying one law and yet violating other laws at the same time. What a sticky mess.

Vint is 100 percent wrong again, as usual, because she will not adopt any notion of common sense, or just and legitimate resistance to unjust or unenforceable law. It’s as if these notions are utterly alien to her.

No, because it’s all fake.

Miss Fitzpatrick, Did you ever bother to look at facts or are you just ranting about how you think You beloved fucking laws should work?

Facts:
1) Several people fist got billed then much later got the letter.
The billing started on Wednesday or Thursday, first on Friday
they got it on the official blog.

2) Some still havn’t got the letter. (Yet my account page have a
small * VAT) marker. I’m not sure that the lindens think or not
thing I’m in the EU.

3) When you have a substantional market inside EU you have to ably
EU laws or not sell to that market. It’s easy and goes for all
companies.

4) The communication is fucked up. Yes that page, leaves as
many new unanswered questions as they try to answer.

5) And you can’t choose to follow one EU law and not all. If they
recognize they have enough market in the EU so they need to
help us pay VAT, (wish was something we had to to our own before)
they recognize that they are doing business inside the EU. So for
that they have to follow the rest of the rules.

6) Amazon does this, Apple (iTunes) i can’t think of any other major
US company that doesn’t and yes it’s more expensive for us.

7) I’m sure that as soon there is an alternative, SL will fall down,
I no longer recommended anyone to invest in SL. (I guess
projects about 1.000.000 US$ have been put on halt so far.)
Lindens need to step up serious and take care about customers
or all will be so fucking pissed that when there is an alternative
they are gone.

1. You need to review the claims of those “several”. I’m not buying it. And if there are only a few, well, it’s not a good thing, but the norm is that everyone got the letter first. Some didn’t have much notice. Some did. It’s not a great situation, but the hysteria, panic, and idiocy surrounding it on your all’s part are making it far worse.

If you think HiPhiPhi whatsis is the answer to your prayers, wait til you see how the Chinese treat you, and make you pay VAT, too.

Nadine, just leave it. It is not thinking only ‘getting it’s point across’.

Yes, that’s the problem with you all, you are not using logic and common sense, nor showing the slightest bit of spine.

Sorry, Vint I gave her the benefit of believing she actually like to have a discussion. That comment actually almost looked like it. But apparently i was wrong, there is no more idea to point out her errors, she doesn’t care. She totally missed al the point and keep on her totality mindless rant.

I sorry Vint i made her come back here…

Have a great day, I think most people understand how bad LL behaved by now.

Miss Fitzpatrick,

Did i ever complain that I pay 25% more that you. I’m used to ever higher levels of additions. WhenI order form Amazon US i get Swedish VAT, and customs added to the price before getting the book in my hand. I There for use Amazon UK, (inside EU) and may British VAT, that’s ok and they send the books from Germany just to make thinks even more funny.

(Sorry vint, sorry. I needed to reply on some of the lies…)

Oh yes, me too.

BUT - did you know its illegal to post prices for reatil services and goods without VAT inclusive under British advertising standards?

So if Linden Lickass Labs (LLL) are going to be so pedantic, they better make a special VAT inclusive subs site for the UK.

Nanauuh!
Shop ‘em

Archie

No, it’s not illegal *on the Internet viewable around the world* and *in other countries* dumbass.

Perhaps we can count on the Chinese to make short work of you, then. They’re good at Cultural Revolutions : )

No, it’s not illegal *on the Internet viewable around the world* and *in other countries* dumbass.

Perhaps we can cou

I’m happy to provide a big, fat I TOLD YOU SO with this link:

a. Confirms that the Lindens absorbed the VAT for you, and kept you in socialism longer than you even deserved.
b. Confirms that you have to pay for it on top of the regular, standard price.
c. Provides LL’s VAT number.
d. Notes that bills will not hit until Oct. 27, because of the issue of bills for past tier incurred before people were informed of the new VAT additions — and yes, they are additions, and yes, that’s legal — the directive was originally directed to create a socialist level playing field, so the socialist imperative that drove it didn’t foresee that it would hit people taking advantage of the non-socialist free enterprise zone of Second Life. Now the socialism has to be paid for.

Lindens now told strait out that raised prices 25% over the night without warning. (Trying to blame this on the EU.) Blog here:
http://thewintermarket.blogspot.com/2007/10/sl-price-level-up-25-thats-what-happend.html
and offical note on LL blog:

http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/10/04/vat-are-you-talking-about/

Hugs from nad, I think this can end all discussion until one day they have a price including VAT, now they have an other including VAT, just that the new one is 25% higher and they try to say that’s EU’s fault.

As they have always absorbed our VAT, the prices we had to pay up to now were all-inclusive.

The all inclusive price now is higher.

So - regardless how you formulate it - it is a price raise for EU citizens all right.

Again, no, that’s not how to understand it.

It’s your insistence on literalism about the EU’s requirement about how a final total is presented, with the tax showing, that is preventing you from grasping this obvious common-sense truth. A price isn’t changed for you, just because you have a tax. A tax is added. It’s either paid for by someone else — or you.

And it is the EU’s fault. Of course it is! And you elected them, you go talk to them, not to some company in California that sets its prices normally for all people, and doesn’t give you some special discount.

No, you don’t get a special discount enabling you to get a break on a price just because you have a need to fund your socialism. Fund it from your taxes, not on the backs of other people in other countries, by screwing them over and having them pay more, while you pay less.

Yes, read that again, They tell us thet raised my price du 25% over the night, The stated price on 76$ for premium made the tax 15.20$ nothing more nothing less, they can’t pay 19$ in tax for that transactions if they liked. I’m pretty shure they never did, now suddelt those 76$ are 95$ over the night and badly showing up on the payment screen. Or that still don’t think I’m in the EU and i’m “lucky” tax evaider here.

Why I’m I spending time trying to convince Miss Neva about how the real world or second life works… (Maybe because someone else might believe her…)

Talk to your Eurocrats, they are the ones who invented this confiscatory tax policy, not Linden Lab.

Also, um, register your business, get a VAT number, write off expenses, get the VAT back.